Help me justify a P85D instead of 70D ($8k difference)

[sorka]

Why? I can't imagine any other reason other than financial problems, but it would help me make the decision a LOT if you could elaborate.

Thanks!
Ryan

Finances have nothing to do with. The reason is it's not the car I paid for. I paid for a car that makes 691 hp and the P85D comes nowhere near close to that. If most of my driving was stop light to stop light, then it wouldn't matter as the P85D beats just about everything there is from 0-30 MPH because the power it does make it makes very early on hence the very high torque, but I do most of my driving on the open highway and the 50-70 is hardly any more than the 85D since the peak hp difference is minimal. I didn't know this when test driving it because the speed was limited to 80 MPH and the power was progressively reduced long before hitting 80 MPH rather than suddenly cut off which masked the fact that the car only has a power to weight ratio of 1 hp for every 9 lbs rather than 1 hp for every 7 lbs. This makes a big difference in passing speed which is why an RS7 with 560 hp will kill the P85D when both stomp it at 50 mph.

If I was doing mostly city driving, my answer would be "hell yea I'd make the same choice again". And I fully expect other P85D owners to say the same thing if their driving habits are such that they ue the P85D where it shines.

 

[cryptyk]

Finances have nothing to do with. The reason is it's not the car I paid for. I paid for a car that makes 691 hp and the P85D comes nowhere near close to that. If most of my driving was stop light to stop light, then it wouldn't matter as the P85D beats just about everything there is from 0-30 MPH because the power it does make it makes very early on hence the very high torque, but I do most of my driving on the open highway and the 50-70 is hardly any more than the 85D since the peak hp difference is minimal. I didn't know this when test driving it because the speed was limited to 80 MPH and the power was progressively reduced long before hitting 80 MPH rather than suddenly cut off which masked the fact that the car only has a power to weight ratio of 1 hp for every 9 lbs rather than 1 hp for every 7 lbs. This makes a big difference in passing speed which is why an RS7 with 560 hp will kill the P85D when both stomp it at 50 mph.

If I was doing mostly city driving, my answer would be "hell yea I'd make the same choice again". And I fully expect other P85D owners to say the same thing if their driving habits are such that they ue the P85D where it shines.

Super helpful, thank you.

This is the reason I think I'm landing on the 85D. The difference with the P85D is limited to 0-60 times. Beyond that, the 85D and P85D feel really similar. If that performance was linear across the speed range it would be a more compelling decision.

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback!

 

[manis]

Finances have nothing to do with. The reason is it's not the car I paid for. I paid for a car that makes 691 hp and the P85D comes nowhere near close to that. If most of my driving was stop light to stop light, then it wouldn't matter as the P85D beats just about everything there is from 0-30 MPH because the power it does make it makes very early on hence the very high torque, but I do most of my driving on the open highway and the 50-70 is hardly any more than the 85D since the peak hp difference is minimal. I didn't know this when test driving it because the speed was limited to 80 MPH and the power was progressively reduced long before hitting 80 MPH rather than suddenly cut off which masked the fact that the car only has a power to weight ratio of 1 hp for every 9 lbs rather than 1 hp for every 7 lbs. This makes a big difference in passing speed which is why an RS7 with 560 hp will kill the P85D when both stomp it at 50 mph.

If I was doing mostly city driving, my answer would be "hell yea I'd make the same choice again". And I fully expect other P85D owners to say the same thing if their driving habits are such that they ue the P85D where it shines.

I don't know that the peak HP difference is minimal. Of course I haven't put either on a dyno at that speed to find out, but ~100hp in the rear motor alone isn't minimal.

Putting the P85D vs 85D aside because I totally understand that you wouldn't get the P85D again given where you drive and I don't want to seem like I'm challenging that... this is general interest in one car vs another car. I've seen the video of the RS7 vs P85D, but I don't find the RS7 that impressive in comparison. Maybe you have first hand experience with the car and I'd be interested to hear personal experience.

It appears to dominate it as it increases speed, but the times it was accelerating away from the P85D it didn't blow its doors off. When the RS7 would pull away it always seemed to have a bit of a lead before you hear the exhaust so I'm not seeing how passing speed difference is huge. The RS7 disappears from sight in 20s of pulling away, which doesn't add up when the 0-150 of the P85D is 35s... the gap should not have been so large even if the RS7 had an increased top speed so I don't think the P85D continued to accelerate. If it is a manual and you don't normally drive at 4k+ RPMs you're going to have to down shift to get that passing power or if it is an automatic you'll have some lag. If you are doing a side by side race on the interstate then you can do prep to be at an optimal point in the power curve and that would make a difference, but last minute "I need to pass this guy at 20mph faster than I'm going" I'm not sure what I saw in the video would make up for lag most people would have (for some the time would be minimal, I know). I mean if we're talking about a situation where all the sudden a P85D and an RS7 look at each other like star crossed lovers and both floor it as soon as they see each other, without a second to plan, I'm not sure I see the RS7 winning that for at least a few seconds.

 

[cryptyk]

If you look at the 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times and speeds, the story is pretty clear.
The Tesla beats everything to 60 in 3.1. Compare that to the RS7 at 3.4, the M6 at 3.5, and the CLS63 at 3.2.
So far, so good.
Now look at the 1/4 mile times. Tesla in 11.5. RS7 in 11.6. M6 in 11.7. CLS63 in 11.6.
Still looking good!
But check out the trap speeds: Tesla @ 114mph. RS7 @ 123mph. M6 @ 124mph. CLS63 @ 122mph.

Uh oh. Don't get me wrong: The P85D is brutally fast, but you're really buying a 0-80mph car. That's AMAZING if you're driving between 0-80mph everywhere you go with lots of launches, but the difference is diminshed between the P85D and other sport luxury sedans (including the 85D) beyond that point.

Right tool for the job, etc.

 

[sorka]

If you look at the 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times and speeds, the story is pretty clear.
The Tesla beats everything to 60 in 3.1. Compare that to the RS7 at 3.4, the M6 at 3.5, and the CLS63 at 3.2.
So far, so good.
Now look at the 1/4 mile times. Tesla in 11.5. RS7 in 11.6. M6 in 11.7. CLS63 in 11.6.
Still looking good!
But check out the trap speeds: Tesla @ 114mph. RS7 @ 123mph. M6 @ 124mph. CLS63 @ 122mph.

Uh oh. Don't get me wrong: The P85D is brutally fast, but you're really buying a 0-80mph car. That's AMAZING if you're driving between 0-80mph everywhere you go with lots of launches, but the difference is diminshed between the P85D and other sport luxury sedans (including the 85D) beyond that point.

Right tool for the job, etc.

Trap speed, not exit time, is the most indicative of horsepower.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I would say that for most, 99% of acceleration on public streets it is between 0 - 80 mph. What Tesla offers is effortless acceleration, with little thundering noise or drama in most all situations. Instant thrust without waiting for down shifts make it best for normal driving conditions.

On a race track, specialized high performance gasoline engines still rule.

On drag strips, electric rules the 1/8th mile. Gasoline or Nitro-methane for longer tracks.

My fun track car is a Dodge Viper. When having fun at Buttonwillow race track, however, I was burning fuel at the rate of only 2.2 mpg.

 

[sorka]

If you look at the 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times and speeds, the story is pretty clear.
The Tesla beats everything to 60 in 3.1. Compare that to the RS7 at 3.4, the M6 at 3.5, and the CLS63 at 3.2.
So far, so good.
Now look at the 1/4 mile times. Tesla in 11.5. RS7 in 11.6. M6 in 11.7. CLS63 in 11.6.
Still looking good!
But check out the trap speeds: Tesla @ 114mph. RS7 @ 123mph. M6 @ 124mph. CLS63 @ 122mph.

Uh oh. Don't get me wrong: The P85D is brutally fast, but you're really buying a 0-80mph car. That's AMAZING if you're driving between 0-80mph everywhere you go with lots of launches, but the difference is diminshed between the P85D and other sport luxury sedans (including the 85D) beyond that point.

Right tool for the job, etc.

Tesla's claimed power to weight ratio of the P85D is 1 hp for every 7 lbs, but it's actually 1 hp for every 9 lbs. The RS7 is 1:8 smack right in the middle of what Tesla claimed the P85D was and what the P85D actually is.

Jump to 2:30 of this video:

700 HP Tesla Model S P85D vs Audi RS7 x 2 races GTBOARD.com Event May 2015 - YouTube

It should have been the other way around pretty much exactlly.

Now in this video, the RS7 even kills it from a stop but the P85D's traction control could have kicked in and stopped it. But notice how the RS7 just keeps pulling:

Audi RS 7 humiliates Tesla P85D - YouTube

And then lets not leave out that I was completely killed by an RS7 on 580 in Livermore. Totally embarrassing.

As far as downshifting or being in the right gear. The RS7 for North America has the ZF 8 speed automatic and it can down shift non sequentially from any gear to any other gear in 200 ms. So yes, the P85D has a tiny advantage ....enough to give it maybe a foot lead when both punch it for 200 ms, but then it's all over.

- - - Updated - - -

I would say that for most, 99% of acceleration on public streets it is between 0 - 80 mph. What Tesla offers is effortless acceleration, with little thundering noise or drama in most all situations. Instant thrust without waiting for down shifts make it best for normal driving conditions.

On a race track, specialized high performance gasoline engines still rule.

On drag strips, electric rules the 1/8th mile. Gasoline or Nitro-methane for longer tracks.

My fun track car is a Dodge Viper. When having fun at Buttonwillow race track, however, I was burning fuel at the rate of only 2.2 mpg.

I agree with everything you say except the 0 - 80 MPH part. Being a P85D owner, I'd put that in the 0 - 50 MPH range.

 

[manis]

Tesla's claimed power to weight ratio of the P85D is 1 hp for every 7 lbs, but it's actually 1 hp for every 9 lbs. The RS7 is 1:8 smack right in the middle of what Tesla claimed the P85D was and what the P85D actually is.

Jump to 2:30 of this video:

700 HP Tesla Model S P85D vs Audi RS7 x 2 races GTBOARD.com Event May 2015 - YouTube

It should have been the other way around pretty much exactlly.

This is the video I was talking about. At 2:30 the RS7 has a slight lead before you hear the exhaust and doesn't exactly blow the doors off the P85D. 20s later at 3:00 you can barely see the RS7, but the 0-150 time of the P85D is 35s so that gap is way too big for a high speed start. If the P85D continue to accelerate the RS7 shouldn't have been that far ahead 20s later. We have no idea if the P85D continued to floor it. I'm not saying the RS7 would have lost, and I'm not saying having the window down made a big difference at all, but having it down period tells me they weren't really trying to do an honest comparison.

I went for a drive this evening (just got my P85D Wednesday so my experience is limited) and I will agree that the acceleration at 70+ isn't as great as 0-60, but it is significant. I definitely notice that it doesn't feel like it pulls as much after about 10-15mph increase, but it is still accelerating quickly.

Now in this video, the RS7 even kills it from a stop but the P85D's traction control could have kicked in and stopped it. But notice how the RS7 just keeps pulling:

Audi RS 7 humiliates Tesla P85D - YouTube

And then lets not leave out that I was completely killed by an RS7 on 580 in Livermore. Totally embarrassing.

There is a comment further down that points out that car has no sensors on the front bumper. According to this post by Tesla, the same day they announced the P85D they announced that all cars coming out of the factory would have 12 sensors. So it is unlikely that is a P85D. Maybe a P85.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/dual-motor-model-s-and-autopilot

I'm not doubting that a high HP ICE can take the Tesla on the interstate. I was just saying by the videos it didn't seem like it was as significant as it could be with something like a Veyron. I think it would be awesome to get some high end cars and take them to the track and do rolling starts to see how various cars compare.

 

[sorka]

This is the video I was talking about. At 2:30 the RS7 has a slight lead before you hear the exhaust and doesn't exactly blow the doors off the P85D. 20s later at 3:00 you can barely see the RS7, but the 0-150 time of the P85D is 35s so that gap is way too big for a high speed start. If the P85D continue to accelerate the RS7 shouldn't have been that far ahead 20s later. We have no idea if the P85D continued to floor it. I'm not saying the RS7 would have lost, and I'm not saying having the window down made a big difference at all, but having it down period tells me they weren't really trying to do an honest comparison.

I went for a drive this evening (just got my P85D Wednesday so my experience is limited) and I will agree that the acceleration at 70+ isn't as great as 0-60, but it is significant. I definitely notice that it doesn't feel like it pulls as much after about 10-15mph increase, but it is still accelerating quickly.



There is a comment further down that points out that car has no sensors on the front bumper. According to this post by Tesla, the same day they announced the P85D they announced that all cars coming out of the factory would have 12 sensors. So it is unlikely that is a P85D. Maybe a P85.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/dual-motor-model-s-and-autopilot

I'm not doubting that a high HP ICE can take the Tesla on the interstate. I was just saying by the videos it didn't seem like it was as significant as it could be with something like a Veyron. I think it would be awesome to get some high end cars and take them to the track and do rolling starts to see how various cars compare.

That's an excellent observation whomever made it. Then that one is clearly not a P85D. In fact, the red may be dark enough to be the signature red. However, the first video is for sure and the rate that the RS7 pulls away even in the very beginning needs a pretty big power to weight ratio difference.

Perhaps even more telling:

Tesla Model S P85D (691HP) vs P85 (415HP) 35 MPH Roll Race - YouTube

There's supposed to be a 280 hp difference between the P85 and P85D.

 

[rjt65]

good luck put simply get what makes you happy

For me i thought i would get the 70 but i test drove all three d's and the P85d made my heart jump over my brain, it was not (for me) worth the extra $$. The driving difference between the 70 and 85D made me decide on 85D. I am going to spend the extra saved $$ in wraps (xpel and opticoat) and some accessories ;-)