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Help with math
- Thread starter LongIslandY
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exxxviii
Member
This is one of my fun soapbox topics... If you look at the data, Tesla is actually highly accurate in posting their EPA combined range (e.g. 330 miles for the MYLR). Edmunds does a road driving test that attempts to mimic the EPA test. Tesla posts 4 of the top 5 most accurate EPA #s. Everyone else looks like they are making up EPA numbers by comparison. (Actually, they are. When you do the two-cycle test, you have less data and most automakers subjectively downgrade their EPA ranges.)
The next best after Tesla is probably Hyundai/Kia/Genesis with 2 cars in the top 10.
Objectively speaking, Tesla's EPA numbers are probably better than everyone else's.
I wish that everyone else was required to follow the same 5-cycle testing methodology as Tesla. That way, the numbers would actually mean something for comparison. As it is, you can only trust Tesla and probably H/K/G. (Audi started doing 5-cycle tests, but I am not sure if all the Audis in Edmunds tests were done under that standard.)
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I'm not so sure I agree, but I would expect no less on a Tesla board. I have NEVER been able to get anywhere close to the advertised range in my Tesla... in any kind of real world driving. On the east coast, driving 55 in the interstate will get you killed, one way or the other.
Again, not saying my iD4 is superior in any way. It's really not. I like my Tesla overall far more. But I DO get the advertised range in iD4, with A/C on full blast, and averaging 70MPH on my highway driving. That's my only point. I get what they advertised, which is never the case with my Tesla
Again, not saying my iD4 is superior in any way. It's really not. I like my Tesla overall far more. But I DO get the advertised range in iD4, with A/C on full blast, and averaging 70MPH on my highway driving. That's my only point. I get what they advertised, which is never the case with my Tesla
exxxviii
Member
Here are the data. These are Edmund's top 10 most accurate. I included the 3 ID.4s they tested along with the bottom 10 for context. Tesla kinda owns EPA accuracy.
If Volkswagen could even remotely accurately post EPA range, they might sell a few more cars...
| Rank | Vehicle | EPA Range | Edmunds Range | Range Precision |
1 | 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid | 348 miles | 345 miles | 0.9% |
2 | 2022 Rivian R1T Launch Edition | 314 miles | 317 miles | 1.0% |
3 | 2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range | 353 miles | 345 miles | 2.3% |
4 | 2020 Tesla Model S Performance | 326 miles | 318 miles | 2.5% |
5 | 2021 Tesla Model Y Long Range | 326 miles | 317 miles | 2.8% |
6 | 2022 Lucid Air Dream Range | 520 miles | 505 miles | 2.9% |
7 | 2022 Kia EV6 GT-Line dual motor | 274 miles | 283 miles | 3.3% |
8 | 2022 Kia EV6 Wind RWD | 310 miles | 323 miles | 4.2% |
9 | 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E GT Performance | 260 miles | 272 miles | 4.6% |
10 | 2022 Porsche Taycan GTS | 246 miles | 259 miles | 5.3% |
22 | 2021 Volkswagen ID.4 Pro | 260 miles | 288 miles | 10.8% |
29 | 2021 Volkswagen ID.4 Pro S dual motor | 240 miles | 272 miles | 13.3% |
35 | 2021 Volkswagen ID.4 First Edition | 250 miles | 287 miles | 14.8% |
44 | 2020 Hyundai Ioniq Electric | 170 miles | 202 miles | 18.8% |
45 | 2020 Kia Niro EV | 239 miles | 285 miles | 19.2% |
46 | 2022 Hyundai Kona Electric | 258 miles | 308 miles | 19.4% |
47 | 2022 BMW iX xDrive50 (22-in wheels) | 315 miles | 377 miles | 19.7% |
48 | 2022 Mercedes-Benz AMG EQS 53 4Matic | 277 miles | 332 miles | 19.9% |
49 | 2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ | 350 miles | 422 miles | 20.6% |
50 | 2022 Audi RS e-tron GT | 232 miles | 285 miles | 22.8% |
51 | 2022 Porsche Taycan (20-in wheels) | 225 miles | 286 miles | 27.1% |
52 | 2020 MINI Cooper SE | 110 miles | 150 miles | 36.4% |
53 | 2020 Porsche Taycan 4S (20-in wheels) | 203 miles | 323 miles | 59.1% |
exxxviii
Member
Those data did the literal opposite. The ID.4's EPA rating is terrible. If you like that, you should love the Porsche Taycan - Porsche publishes 200 miles EPA and gives you 300. It is not that they are giving you something for nothing. They were massively derating their EPA numbers for who knows why. Tesla, by very stark contrast, is providing consumers the most accurate EPA numbers in the industry. They give you almost precisely what they promise.
The data show that Volkswagen is bad at accurately providing EPA #s. Porsche is really, really bad, until recently, when they revised their processes. And, you probably overlooked that VW's best ID4 range was still 10% shorter than the dual motor Model Y, on a similar battery. Based on those two shortcomings, seems a lot like the ID.4 is a fail. It looks like they under promise but still fall short of the win.
Mrbrock
Active Member
Just because you benefit from extra range doesn’t mean it’s accurate. And these tests like Edmonds aren’t how you would use the vehicles in real life, much like the EPA tests aren’t real life driving. You also don’t charge your Tesla to 100 and drive to 0 so I doubt you can honestly say you have tried to get all of the real world range from a Tesla to prove it doesn’t get it. And your id4 with 287 miles of range is still less from 10-90 than a MY. 80% of 317 is more than 80% of 287. Couple this with the fact that the id4 battery is the same size or slightly larger than the Tesla one and any argument you have loses because of efficiency.
Adjusting for the edmunds numbers, the MY 28kwh/100mi is 92.4kwh to fully charge the battery. Adjusting to 317mi bumps to 29kwh/100mi. For id4, 34kwh/100mi is 86.7 kWh for full charge and adjusting to 287mi gets you to 30 kWh/100 miles. Much closer but only using 86 kWh to charge an 82 kWh battery sounds like there are huge buffers or bad charging data. But this is all manipulating numbers outside of the actual tests the numbers are based on. So you can make them seem however you want them to seem.
That's why I Keep repeating that I'm not talking about test data.
I'm simply talking about getting the range they advertised when you made the purchasing decision. Whether they understated or not, you make a decision based on that range, and it's nice when you constantly exceed that range. It's disappointing in the Tesla when you never get close to it. In real world driving... not in testing.
I'm not talking about which car gets better range, which car is better, which car saves you the most, or anything like that. Just that you get more range than you agreed to with the iD4, and less range than you agreed to when you bought the Tesla. Simple.
I am not, in any way, saying the range is better in the iD4 than in the Tesla. That was never my point. Only that you got a little more than you bargained for with the VW, and a little less with the Tesla.
And just to reiterate one more point you referenced. When you say you doubt I've really "tried" to get the epa range in the Tesla... that is my ENTIRE point in a nutshell. To get the advertised range in your Tesla you have to TRY. Hard. No climate. Drive very slow. Stay on flat ground. Basically, do all your driving on a test loop. In the VW, I just drive... like every other car I own. And it BEATS its advertised range. Never said it beats the Tesla's range. Just that it beats the range I agreed to when I laid out my cash.
That's been my point the entire time. Not that the VW gets better range than the Tesla.
I'm simply talking about getting the range they advertised when you made the purchasing decision. Whether they understated or not, you make a decision based on that range, and it's nice when you constantly exceed that range. It's disappointing in the Tesla when you never get close to it. In real world driving... not in testing.
I'm not talking about which car gets better range, which car is better, which car saves you the most, or anything like that. Just that you get more range than you agreed to with the iD4, and less range than you agreed to when you bought the Tesla. Simple.
I am not, in any way, saying the range is better in the iD4 than in the Tesla. That was never my point. Only that you got a little more than you bargained for with the VW, and a little less with the Tesla.
And just to reiterate one more point you referenced. When you say you doubt I've really "tried" to get the epa range in the Tesla... that is my ENTIRE point in a nutshell. To get the advertised range in your Tesla you have to TRY. Hard. No climate. Drive very slow. Stay on flat ground. Basically, do all your driving on a test loop. In the VW, I just drive... like every other car I own. And it BEATS its advertised range. Never said it beats the Tesla's range. Just that it beats the range I agreed to when I laid out my cash.
That's been my point the entire time. Not that the VW gets better range than the Tesla.
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Mrbrock
Active Member
So you regularly take your vehicle from 100 to 0? How do you know you are “exceeding the range”?
Mrbrock
Active Member
Please explain. You are making pretty broad statements that you don’t seem willing to back up. I can drive my Tesla 10 miles and only use 2% battery. That’s a 500 mile extrapolated range so I could say I exceed the stated range.
Over long periods of driving, you can do the math based on your watts per mile, and how many miles you've actually driven vs state of charge. Come on... everyone in every EV does it routinely.
I don't have test formulas to show you, but you can see even from the Edmunds testing above, you get a little more range than expected from the VW (and many others), and a little less with Tesla. I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp.
It's not a claim about the quality of the Tesla, nor the overall range of both vehicles. It was just a simple statement that when looking at purchasing EV's, one of the factors you consider is range, of course. While my Model Y has more range than my VW, I paid a premium for that extra range, and it's always been disappointing that you never really approach that range stated on their website. Not without driving it like you ARE on a test loop.
When I purchased the VW, I KNEW it had way less range overall, but also cost less. I made my decision based on that perceived value. I've been pleasantly surprised that I almost always EXCEED that range in the VW, in real world driving.
That's it. That was my only point. Whether they understated the range in the first place, our just calculated wrong and are inaccurate, is immaterial to me. I purchased the VW with an expectation on range that it really gets, and surpasses routinely. I bought the Tesla with an expectation of range that it never achieved. Again, in real world driving, not on test loops.
I don't think there's any point in going on with this, as we're just going to keep restating what we've already said. Over and over.
I don't have test formulas to show you, but you can see even from the Edmunds testing above, you get a little more range than expected from the VW (and many others), and a little less with Tesla. I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp.
It's not a claim about the quality of the Tesla, nor the overall range of both vehicles. It was just a simple statement that when looking at purchasing EV's, one of the factors you consider is range, of course. While my Model Y has more range than my VW, I paid a premium for that extra range, and it's always been disappointing that you never really approach that range stated on their website. Not without driving it like you ARE on a test loop.
When I purchased the VW, I KNEW it had way less range overall, but also cost less. I made my decision based on that perceived value. I've been pleasantly surprised that I almost always EXCEED that range in the VW, in real world driving.
That's it. That was my only point. Whether they understated the range in the first place, our just calculated wrong and are inaccurate, is immaterial to me. I purchased the VW with an expectation on range that it really gets, and surpasses routinely. I bought the Tesla with an expectation of range that it never achieved. Again, in real world driving, not on test loops.
I don't think there's any point in going on with this, as we're just going to keep restating what we've already said. Over and over.
Mrbrock
Active Member
They keeping stating the id4 is better than MY in terms of EPA range while ignoring that the id4 is less efficient. If Tesla rated at 317 per the Edmunds numbers vs 287 for the id4, they are still complaining that you can’t get 326/330. They use the Edmonds 287 to support that the id4 gets better range but when comparing numbers from the same test with the same size battery they are unwilling to accept that the MY goes further on the same amount of energy. Tesla follows the rules of the EPA for rating their cars. If there’s a problem with the numbers, it’s the EPA they need to complain about, not Tesla.
Also, pointing out that VW is farther off in their estimate than tesla gets the response of, I don’t care since it’s under. You can’t ask Tesla to be more accurate but say vw is ok because they are under. Either you’re accurate or you’re not.
Exelion
Member
I guess I sort of get what's going on here. If carmaker A advertises their car as 300 mile range, but the car can only get 150 in the real world, vs carmaker B says their car can do 100 miles but also gets 150 in the real world, people who bought car B would be ecstatic and people who bought car A would be angry. Both cars do 150 miles, but the way they were marketed is what made people happy or upset. This is very extreme example, I don't think carmakers go this far in either direction. I'd be happy with either car too, as long as I have a long way to go between chargers, and have plenty of chargers to pull into if I need one.
The bottom line though, I think, is that carmaker A would sell more cars.
The bottom line though, I think, is that carmaker A would sell more cars.
For ICE vehicles there is Fuelly.com. Consumers can research the real world results for hundreds (sometimes thousands) of vehicle owners with the same vehicle year, make, model and engine configuration. EPA estimated fuel economy data is not considered, nor is range. Fuelly does track the number of miles driven and the number of fuel fill ups for each registered vehicle, as reported by Fuelly users. As expected there is usually a symmetrical distribution of fuel economy (MPG) results and also a few results that vary by more than 1 standard deviation. Fuelly does have registered plug-in hybrid vehicles but the fuel economy reporting for PHEVs is inconsistent and there is no way to confirm PHEV MPG results.
This type of range and efficiency data for Tesla vehicles already exists in isolated data stores, i.e Tesafi, ScanMyTesla, etc. Except for range tests conducted by various online publications such as Edmunds, InsideEVs and Eletrek I am unaware of a single site that collects this type of data for EV vehicles from different manufacturers.
This type of range and efficiency data for Tesla vehicles already exists in isolated data stores, i.e Tesafi, ScanMyTesla, etc. Except for range tests conducted by various online publications such as Edmunds, InsideEVs and Eletrek I am unaware of a single site that collects this type of data for EV vehicles from different manufacturers.
Mrbrock
Active Member
Would you hold it against A and complain about it if they were following the rules available to them? And B had the same opportunity to use the same rules and get the same higher number to use to sell more cars?
Exelion
Member
No I wouldn’t. And I wouldn’t really care about B either. Truth is, I don’t even look at mileage numbers anymore. I look at the size of the battery, weight of the car, and (un)aerodynamic shape, and get a rough estimate of how far the car would be able to go, and get a rough number. As of right now, cars with 75ish kwh batteries, 5000 lb weights and rounded SUV shapes will be somewhere around 260-300 miles per charge give or take. Whether one gets 285 or 275 or 290….not a big deal.
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