Holy Phantom Drain

[Tigers]

OK - I need to know if others are experiencing this. I charge my Model 3 at home with a dryer outlet 95% of the time. It's 4 months old with 7,000 miles.

If I charge the car up to 90% and drive down to 10% (over the course of 3 days let's say)...I get under the rated 235wh/mi (around 230ish) but the output says I've only used ~50-55 kwh and I've only gone ~160-170 miles - uhh, if I can do math here, I should be getting closer to 250 miles before charging.

Is it the AC (thought this was included in wh/mi usage)? Overheat protection? Horrible overnight phantom drain? That's a 70-80 mile difference per "full" charge...I live down in Texas if it's the heat...

 

[jjrandorin]

short trips take more power just like in an ICE car... and there is zero benefit at all to "running it down to charge it back up", so there is no reason you should be driving from 90% to 10% before you charge again, unless you also have the dryer plugged into that outlet and are having to unplug the dryer to charge.

 

[Tigers]

That is actually the case for me and in the Texas hear, it means leaving the door to the garage slightly cracked. That's not the issue, the issue is that there seems to be an inordinate amount of random loss with no explanation. It shouldnt need to be charged every single day for 2-3 hours just to get the 50 miles back I drove in 45 minutes. It should be getting almost a hundred miles more per full charge.

 

[jjrandorin]

That is actually the case for me and in the Texas hear, it means leaving the door to the garage slightly cracked. That's not the issue, the issue is that there seems to be an inordinate amount of random loss with no explanation. It shouldnt need to be charged every single day for 2-3 hours just to get the 50 miles back I drove in 45 minutes. It should be getting almost a hundred miles more per full charge.

Not if you take short trips it wont.

Also, make sure you have sentry mode off, cabin overheat protection off, summon standby off (if you have FSD).

One more thing, most dryer plugs are not the type of plug that tolerates being plugged and unplugged repeatedly. The plug is going to wear out like that ( springs wont grab the plug) because the dryer plugs generally are plugged in and left there until you get a new dryer.

Assuming this is temporary, keep an eye on how loose the plug is and replace if it feels a even a little loose. Consider putting an outlet in the garage (on its own circuit of course), if you can.

Energy spent "sitting" anywhere is not accounted for in the Wh/Mi figure, so if you go out and use sentry mode while you are out, that sentry mode energy is not accounted for in the wh/mi.

 

[camalaio]

You're on the right track. That figure does include AC (but only while in gear and driving).

Your driving accounts for about 38kWh from what you said, so about 14-17kWh are being used when not driving.

I'll take your 3 days as 2.5, because I'm assuming you unplug it in the morning, and plug it in/charge at night a few days later. So 60 hours.

That means an average drain of around 250W or more.

When the car is awake, it draws about 250-300W.

So, two theories:

1. You have something keeping the car awake. This could be Sentry mode or Summon Standby as others mentioned. It could also be a third party service like Stats or TeslaFi. Checking the app also wakes the car.
2. Use of Cabin Overheat Protection and/or preconditioning the cabin could account for a good chunk of that as well. I don't know the impact of COP really. I have it set to "fan" instead of AC to save power and put less wear on the AC.

 

[Tigers]

Not if you take short trips it wont.

Also, make sure you have sentry mode off, cabin overheat protection off, summon standby off (if you have FSD).

One more thing, most dryer plugs are not the type of plug that tolerates being plugged and unplugged repeatedly. The plug is going to wear out like that ( springs wont grab the plug) because the dryer plugs generally are plugged in and left there until you get a new dryer.

Assuming this is temporary, keep an eye on how loose the plug is and replace if it feels a even a little loose. Consider putting an outlet in the garage (on its own circuit of course), if you can.

Energy spent "sitting" anywhere is not accounted for in the Wh/Mi figure, so if you go out and use sentry mode while you are out, that sentry mode energy is not accounted for in the wh/mi.

In regards to the dryer outlet, I'm a renter and this was my plan for about a year until we buy. Will it last that long or am I in trouble?

 

[stevegu]

Perhaps a useful data point, I recently started using the overheat protection (with a/c) instead of trying to remember to start the climate control a few minutes before departure (it works great, BTW), and I am estimating it uses about 300 watts in our situation, 90 degreeF, and parked in the sun. For example, it seems to use about 2.5 KWH in 8 hours.

 

[jjrandorin]

In regards to the dryer outlet, I'm a renter and this was my plan for about a year until we buy. Will it last that long or am I in trouble?

You will need to keep an eye on it. If it starts to feel loose, its no longer safe (in my opinion). Its similar to a loose "regular" outlet in your home, but its pulling more power so more dangerous.

On the "renter" situation, I completely understand that, and why you would be willing to tolerate plugging and unplugging like that, but since your dryer is not in your garage and you are having to let out Air conditioned air to charge, I am sure there is a financial impact there, but it would be hard to actually measure.

On thread topic, I can virtually guarantee you there isnt anything wrong with the car. What happens is, people have the wrong expectations when they start out. They think some variation of : "I bought a car with 250 miles range, I only drive 50 miles a day going to work and running my errands, so I can go 4 days between charges, even if I am being conservative". It doesnt work that way (and it didnt work that way in their ICE vehicles either but they didnt care because they were used to the routine of "drive to the gas station when the little gauge is close to E".

These cars do have some losses without driving them, AND the startup energy usage is not what it is when you get going for a while. We dont know if your 235 wh/mi is an "instant" reading from the car, or if you reset the trip meter before you got in, or if it was the "average" (for example).

With most things turned off AND not "checking on the car via the app", and NOT using any third party apps, your mileage lost from parking overnight should be somewhere between 2 - 5 miles a day. Every time you check on the car via the app, it wakes it up, and you increase your energy usage, because the car uses more energy when "awake".

New owners and people on trips tend to like to "check on the car to see how many miles I have left", and paradoxically, the act of doing so uses more miles (which they may not realize). This leads to a cycle of, say, when someone is on a trip, them checking on the car, not liking the amount of miles that are left for some reason, then stressing and "checking on the car" more and more to "check" on the miles.... thereby making the car lose more miles by being more awake.

I say "no third party apps" because most times those need to be configured a certain way to make sure they dont keep the car awake. The popular ones can be configured this way, so add minimally to drain, but if mis configured, keep the car awake. These forums convince new owners they need to have one of these apps, so many times new owners download stats, or teslafi, or one of the apps that allows you to connect to it with your smartwatch or something, then wonder why their car either "isnt sleeping" or is "losing so many miles, I need to contact tesla!"

So, to be clear, I am not saying these apps are "bad" or that they" dont work", I am saying care has to be taken to ensure one understands the conditions in which they work, and has them configured as the app creator recommends to minimize additional power drain from keeping the car awake. OP IF you have any of those apps (such as stats, teslafi or anything else other than the standard tesla app), I would recommend changing your tesla password to invalidate your token, and driving your regular commute for a week or so without them, and dont check on the car when you are at home. Set the charging completed notification so you know when the car is done charging so you dont have to "check on it" to find out.

Ensure the things I mentioned in my other post are not on. you should find that, you will lose 2-5 miles a day when parked. When you go out, if you use sentry mode, understand that the car doesnt sleep, so you lose somewhere between 1-2 miles of energy per HOUR. If you drive to work and park outside, and use sentry for your 8 hour day, thats 8 - 16 miles lost right there.

All of this will add up to you needing to charge it more than "you thought you would" when you bought it, especially since you have to go through the hassle of plugging in every night through a garage door into a plug inside the residence. You are probably going to do that 30-40% more than you thought you would when you bought the car, due to the stuff above. Doesnt mean there is anything wrong with the car though, its just how the car works.

Hopefully when you move to your next location, you can put charging in your garage. It makes a world of difference in the "livability" of owning one of these cars. Plugging in in the garage becomes second nature, like closing the car door when you get out, and you always have a "full tank" every single morning, like having your ICE car hooked up to a personal gas station in your garage. You get the time back that you spent driving to the gas station and filling up. Everyone likes to say "Filling up an ICE only takes 5 minutes!!!" yeah, the actual ACT of filling it up takes that long, but unless the pump is in your back yard, and never has any people in it, most people likely spend an extra 15-20 minutes from the point they decide "I need gas" , to drive to the gas station 1 - 3 miles from wherever they are, etc.

I know in my case, the gas station is 2 miles from my home, and "on the way" to work, yet, the total process of "getting gas" in the morning before I went to work ment I had to leave 20-25 minutes earlier, to get to work on time. THAT is the REAL time spent "going to the gas station" that is not spend with home charging, and if its in your garage its about 3-5 additional seconds after you get out to plug in, and done.


Anyway, good luck, and keep an eye on that dryer plug.. and if you are using any sort of extension cord, keep a very close eye on that.

 

[SigNC]

Any AC used while the car is in park is not calculated into your wh/m and I don't believe is displayed in energy used.

 

[Tigers]

You will need to keep an eye on it. If it starts to feel loose, its no longer safe (in my opinion). Its similar to a loose "regular" outlet in your home, but its pulling more power so more dangerous.

On the "renter" situation, I completely understand that, and why you would be willing to tolerate plugging and unplugging like that, but since your dryer is not in your garage and you are having to let out Air conditioned air to charge, I am sure there is a financial impact there, but it would be hard to actually measure.

On thread topic, I can virtually guarantee you there isnt anything wrong with the car. What happens is, people have the wrong expectations when they start out. They think some variation of : "I bought a car with 250 miles range, I only drive 50 miles a day going to work and running my errands, so I can go 4 days between charges, even if I am being conservative". It doesnt work that way (and it didnt work that way in their ICE vehicles either but they didnt care because they were used to the routine of "drive to the gas station when the little gauge is close to E".

These cars do have some losses without driving them, AND the startup energy usage is not what it is when you get going for a while. We dont know if your 235 wh/mi is an "instant" reading from the car, or if you reset the trip meter before you got in, or if it was the "average" (for example).

With most things turned off AND not "checking on the car via the app", and NOT using any third party apps, your mileage lost from parking overnight should be somewhere between 2 - 5 miles a day. Every time you check on the car via the app, it wakes it up, and you increase your energy usage, because the car uses more energy when "awake".

New owners and people on trips tend to like to "check on the car to see how many miles I have left", and paradoxically, the act of doing so uses more miles (which they may not realize). This leads to a cycle of, say, when someone is on a trip, them checking on the car, not liking the amount of miles that are left for some reason, then stressing and "checking on the car" more and more to "check" on the miles.... thereby making the car lose more miles by being more awake.

I say "no third party apps" because most times those need to be configured a certain way to make sure they dont keep the car awake. The popular ones can be configured this way, so add minimally to drain, but if mis configured, keep the car awake. These forums convince new owners they need to have one of these apps, so many times new owners download stats, or teslafi, or one of the apps that allows you to connect to it with your smartwatch or something, then wonder why their car either "isnt sleeping" or is "losing so many miles, I need to contact tesla!"

So, to be clear, I am not saying these apps are "bad" or that they" dont work", I am saying care has to be taken to ensure one understands the conditions in which they work, and has them configured as the app creator recommends to minimize additional power drain from keeping the car awake. OP IF you have any of those apps (such as stats, teslafi or anything else other than the standard tesla app), I would recommend changing your tesla password to invalidate your token, and driving your regular commute for a week or so without them, and dont check on the car when you are at home. Set the charging completed notification so you know when the car is done charging so you dont have to "check on it" to find out.

Ensure the things I mentioned in my other post are not on. you should find that, you will lose 2-5 miles a day when parked. When you go out, if you use sentry mode, understand that the car doesnt sleep, so you lose somewhere between 1-2 miles of energy per HOUR. If you drive to work and park outside, and use sentry for your 8 hour day, thats 8 - 16 miles lost right there.

All of this will add up to you needing to charge it more than "you thought you would" when you bought it, especially since you have to go through the hassle of plugging in every night through a garage door into a plug inside the residence. You are probably going to do that 30-40% more than you thought you would when you bought the car, due to the stuff above. Doesnt mean there is anything wrong with the car though, its just how the car works.

Hopefully when you move to your next location, you can put charging in your garage. It makes a world of difference in the "livability" of owning one of these cars. Plugging in in the garage becomes second nature, like closing the car door when you get out, and you always have a "full tank" every single morning, like having your ICE car hooked up to a personal gas station in your garage. You get the time back that you spent driving to the gas station and filling up. Everyone likes to say "Filling up an ICE only takes 5 minutes!!!" yeah, the actual ACT of filling it up takes that long, but unless the pump is in your back yard, and never has any people in it, most people likely spend an extra 15-20 minutes from the point they decide "I need gas" , to drive to the gas station 1 - 3 miles from wherever they are, etc.

I know in my case, the gas station is 2 miles from my home, and "on the way" to work, yet, the total process of "getting gas" in the morning before I went to work ment I had to leave 20-25 minutes earlier, to get to work on time. THAT is the REAL time spent "going to the gas station" that is not spend with home charging, and if its in your garage its about 3-5 additional seconds after you get out to plug in, and done.


Anyway, good luck, and keep an eye on that dryer plug.. and if you are using any sort of extension cord, keep a very close eye on that.

Thanks for the info. One last note on the dryer outlet situation, I have an extension cord, Im just going to leave that plugged in and use the other end to switch between the car and outlet, that should eliminate destroying the plug.

On thread topic: I think the actual issue is how the cars are marketed and how editorial outlets, people who own the cars post about the usability of them.

For example, the website says 322 miles of rated range, you will NEVER get 322 miles out of this car unless it's brand new, you charge it to 100% and then drive like 45 mph in a single trip (with no a/c, no heat, normal weather, flat geography)...it's extremely deceptive.

When I buy an ice car, it says 30mpg average, that's what it gets and it lasts the 300+ miles depending on the tank in most conditions...and if not, it's a 3-5 minute stop at one of the hundreds of thousands of pumps located conveniently almost any spot in the country. My previous ICE car was driven the exact same way and it was always getting the 280-300 miles to the full tank. I expected this to drop, but not by half.

Back to the EV - people need to know that 1) charging to 100% isn't a possibility 99% of the time (I knew this) 2) driving below 10-15% is very bad for the battery (I knew this) 3) sentry mode that is really nice, will destroy your battery 4) any hvac use will kill the battery 5) having the car sit there for a day or two will kill the battery 6) any situation such as carrying bikes, roof racks, wind blowing a certain direction will kill the battery.

I'd also like to note I don't use teslafi or any third party app. I never log on to my car app or wake my car for any reason.

The information needs to be better for consumers, you'll be lucky to get 200 real world usable miles for any full charge. To me, that 30-40% difference is pretty annoying.

It's comical to me that people say "we hit 300 miles of range with an EV, finally can end ICE cars!" but in reality, even in perfect conditions which almost no one has most of the time, you still have that 20% battery buffer, putting you down to 240 at best. No one should be touting EV takeover until these things can do a legit 300 miles per full charge and it seems the rated range will need to be 500+ to get there.

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks for the info. One last note on the dryer outlet situation, I have an extension cord, Im just going to leave that plugged in and use the other end to switch between the car and outlet, that should eliminate destroying the plug.

On thread topic: I think the actual issue is how the cars are marketed and how editorial outlets, people who own the cars post about the usability of them.

For example, the website says 322 miles of rated range, you will NEVER get 322 miles out of this car unless it's brand new, you charge it to 100% and then drive like 45 mph in a single trip (with no a/c, no heat, normal weather, flat geography)...it's extremely deceptive.

When I buy an ice car, it says 30mpg average, that's what it gets and it lasts the 300+ miles depending on the tank in most conditions...and if not, it's a 3-5 minute stop at one of the hundreds of thousands of pumps located conveniently almost any spot in the country. My previous ICE car was driven the exact same way and it was always getting the 280-300 miles to the full tank. I expected this to drop, but not by half.

Back to the EV - people need to know that 1) charging to 100% isn't a possibility 99% of the time (I knew this) 2) driving below 10-15% is very bad for the battery (I knew this) 3) sentry mode that is really nice, will destroy your battery 4) any hvac use will kill the battery 5) having the car sit there for a day or two will kill the battery 6) any situation such as carrying bikes, roof racks, wind blowing a certain direction will kill the battery.

I'd also like to note I don't use teslafi or any third party app. I never log on to my car app or wake my car for any reason.

The information needs to be better for consumers, you'll be lucky to get 200 real world usable miles for any full charge. To me, that 30-40% difference is pretty annoying.

It's comical to me that people say "we hit 300 miles of range with an EV, finally can end ICE cars!" but in reality, even in perfect conditions which almost no one has most of the time, you still have that 20% battery buffer, putting you down to 240 at best. No one should be touting EV takeover until these things can do a legit 300 miles per full charge and it seems the rated range will need to be 500+ to get there.

As I said, it definitely took you more than 5 minutes to fill up. From the time you decide to fill up your ICE to the time you pull away from the gas station is NOT 5 minutes. its kind of like people ignoring the amount of money they put as a down payment on a car, when they talk about how "low their payment is". I also have never driven a car that got its EPA rated mileage, but according to TMC I am an extreme outlier because everyone here talks about how their ICE car that got 30MPG got exactly that throughout its life of use, under all conditions.

I guarantee you that you were not hitting EPA rated MPG on your ICE car driving 70-80 on the freeway.

 

[camalaio]

Thanks for the info. One last note on the dryer outlet situation, I have an extension cord, Im just going to leave that plugged in and use the other end to switch between the car and outlet, that should eliminate destroying the plug.

On thread topic: I think the actual issue is how the cars are marketed and how editorial outlets, people who own the cars post about the usability of them.

For example, the website says 322 miles of rated range, you will NEVER get 322 miles out of this car unless it's brand new, you charge it to 100% and then drive like 45 mph in a single trip (with no a/c, no heat, normal weather, flat geography)...it's extremely deceptive.

When I buy an ice car, it says 30mpg average, that's what it gets and it lasts the 300+ miles depending on the tank in most conditions...and if not, it's a 3-5 minute stop at one of the hundreds of thousands of pumps located conveniently almost any spot in the country. My previous ICE car was driven the exact same way and it was always getting the 280-300 miles to the full tank. I expected this to drop, but not by half.

Back to the EV - people need to know that 1) charging to 100% isn't a possibility 99% of the time (I knew this) 2) driving below 10-15% is very bad for the battery (I knew this) 3) sentry mode that is really nice, will destroy your battery 4) any hvac use will kill the battery 5) having the car sit there for a day or two will kill the battery 6) any situation such as carrying bikes, roof racks, wind blowing a certain direction will kill the battery.

I'd also like to note I don't use teslafi or any third party app. I never log on to my car app or wake my car for any reason.

The information needs to be better for consumers, you'll be lucky to get 200 real world usable miles for any full charge. To me, that 30-40% difference is pretty annoying.

It's comical to me that people say "we hit 300 miles of range with an EV, finally can end ICE cars!" but in reality, even in perfect conditions which almost no one has most of the time, you still have that 20% battery buffer, putting you down to 240 at best. No one should be touting EV takeover until these things can do a legit 300 miles per full charge and it seems the rated range will need to be 500+ to get there.

Hey, so this is something I tell other people when considering an EV and considering actual range:

• Use 10-90% charge range at most for best health, so effectively 80% of your battery and/or rated range
• For Tesla specifically, around freezing temps, deduct 30% for the Long Range (a bit more for SR+). 40% if colder. Perhaps 20% around 10C/50F.

For a 310mi (499km) LR, that means only 248 daily usable miles (399km) in good conditions. In freezing temps, that becomes about 173 daily usable miles (279km).

It's the best summary I can make without getting into more complex discussions. Hopefully it is helpful if you have those discussions with others as well.

I really hope rating agencies get involved with requirements on idle power usage (standby and driving) as well as climate control. Maybe also enforce some "daily recommended usable" range as well like above. One can dream.

As I said, it definitely took you more than 5 minutes to fill up. From the time you decide to fill up your ICE to the time you pull away from the gas station is NOT 5 minutes. its kind of like people ignoring the amount of money they put as a down payment on a car, when they talk about how "low their payment is". I also have never driven a car that got its EPA rated mileage, but according to TMC I am an extreme outlier because everyone here talks about how their ICE car that got 30MPG got exactly that throughout its life of use, under all conditions.

I guarantee you that you were not hitting EPA rated MPG on your ICE car driving 70-80 on the freeway.

I think this varies. From "detour" to "merge" back to my route, filling up my gas vehicles is definitely less than 5 minutes. Partly because gas stations are conveniently everywhere, partly because there's no line up, partly because I pay at the pump.

Anecdotally I personally get the EPA ratings above 70mph on our gas vehicles too, but not much above that point. Wife and I have always been on the more efficient end of average drivers though. We get below rated in summer with the AC on with the Model 3 as well. Winter, of course, is an entirely different story!

 

[jjrandorin]

Hey, so this is something I tell other people when considering an EV and considering actual range:

• Use 10-90% charge range at most for best health, so effectively 80% of your battery and/or rated range
• For Tesla specifically, around freezing temps, deduct 30% for the Long Range (a bit more for SR+). 40% if colder. Perhaps 20% around 10C/50F.

For a 310mi (499km) LR, that means only 248 daily usable miles (399km) in good conditions. In freezing temps, that becomes about 173 daily usable miles (279km).

It's the best summary I can make without getting into more complex discussions. Hopefully it is helpful if you have those discussions with others as well.

I really hope rating agencies get involved with requirements on idle power usage (standby and driving) as well as climate control. Maybe also enforce some "daily recommended usable" range as well like above. One can dream.



I think this varies. From "detour" to "merge" back to my route, filling up my gas vehicles is definitely less than 5 minutes. Partly because gas stations are conveniently everywhere, partly because there's no line up, partly because I pay at the pump.

Anecdotally I personally get the EPA ratings above 70mph on our gas vehicles too, but not much above that point. Wife and I have always been on the more efficient end of average drivers though. We get below rated in summer with the AC on with the Model 3 as well. Winter, of course, is an entirely different story!

Next time you are at home, and you think "I need gas before I go to blah with my gas car", start a timer from when you get in your car, and stop it when you pull out of the gas station.

Or, if you would normally get gas on the way home from work, if the gas station is at the same exit you normally get off, would need to one time, drive straight home, and the next time, get off go get gas and then drive home, and see what the difference in time you arrive home is. Its probably not 5 minutes different, in either case.

 

[camalaio]

Next time you are at home, and you think "I need gas before I go to blah with my gas car", start a timer from when you get in your car, and stop it when you pull out of the gas station.

Or, if you would normally get gas on the way home from work, if the gas station is at the same exit you normally get off, would need to one time, drive straight home, and the next time, get off go get gas and then drive home, and see what the difference in time you arrive home is. Its probably not 5 minutes different, in either case.

I've literally never gone out for the sole purpose of getting gas (quite honestly I have never heard of anyone doing this). It's always been a quick "detour" when on the way somewhere (due to the high availability). Maybe it's different because I'm not in a huge city? I don't need an "exit" to get to a gas station - I just pull right off the main road that I'm already on to go to/from my house directly into the gas station, fill up, and pull out right back on the same road I was already on. This has been the case for... every house I've ever lived in, about 9 different places within a 70km radius? I think we just live in very different areas. I'm even picky about which brand of gas station I stop at, and it's genuinely always on a route I'm already going.

 

[jjrandorin]

I've literally never gone out for the sole purpose of getting gas (quite honestly I have never heard of anyone doing this). It's always been a quick "detour" when on the way somewhere (due to the high availability). Maybe it's different because I'm not in a huge city? I don't need an "exit" to get to a gas station - I just pull right off the main road that I'm already on to go to/from my house directly into the gas station, fill up, and pull out right back on the same road I was already on. This has been the case for... every house I've ever lived in, about 9 different places within a 70km radius? I think we just live in very different areas. I'm even picky about which brand of gas station I stop at, and it's genuinely always on a route I'm already going.

So you have never had to get gas in the morning on the way to work, or if you do, the gas station is exactly in the path to go to work? I guess it could be differences in where we live, but, while I have always had gas stations within a 3 ish or less mile radius, if I have to go "get gas" before I go wherever else I was going, it adds more than 5 minutes.

Right now, as I mentioned before, if I were to use my wifes ICE and it needed gas before I went to work, I would have to leave 20 to 25 minutes earlier, even though the gas station is only roughly 2 ish miles away.

 

[camalaio]

So you have never had to get gas in the morning on the way to work, or if you do, the gas station is exactly in the path to go to work?

Yes. Exactly. For 100% of my (albeit short so far) life, the gas station is exactly on the path I travel. I live in a town of about 40k people, but used to live 45 minutes away in the larger city of 135k people. Not huge, but not tiny.

The exception I can think of is my wife's commute a few years ago. She lived in another town for a bit, close to work, but work was a bit out of town and there were no stations between her and work. That said, she'd fill up maybe every two weeks? So the need for groceries, meeting up with people, etc. would take her into town anyways and she'd pass a gas station of the desired brand on the way. On topic with the thread, the reason she could do this and it was entirely sufficient was there's no significant "phantom drain" for a gas vehicle. Her "500km range" was pretty much that all the time, no matter how long the car sat, so the short work hops with no gas along the way didn't really impact her ability to conveniently fuel up.

I can see how this might be different for larger cities. Thinking of Vancouver, if one lived and worked downtown, I could see how a real gas detour might be necessary and/or be complicated (lineups, merging in/out). But in the same case, it's also unlikely that you have at-home charging, so you'd need to make accommodations or even longer detours for EV charging. The in-between of commutes within/near a large city (like I think you're implying with "exits") is probably the sweet spot of gas being a mild inconvenience of a detour, but probably having at-home charging for EVs. Sound about right?

 

[jjrandorin]

Yes. Exactly. For 100% of my (albeit short so far) life, the gas station is exactly on the path I travel. I live in a town of about 40k people, but used to live 45 minutes away in the larger city of 135k people. Not huge, but not tiny.

The exception I can think of is my wife's commute a few years ago. She lived in another town for a bit, close to work, but work was a bit out of town and there were no stations between her and work. That said, she'd fill up maybe every two weeks? So the need for groceries, meeting up with people, etc. would take her into town anyways and she'd pass a gas station of the desired brand on the way. On topic with the thread, the reason she could do this and it was entirely sufficient was there's no significant "phantom drain" for a gas vehicle. Her "500km range" was pretty much that all the time, no matter how long the car sat, so the short work hops with no gas along the way didn't really impact her ability to conveniently fuel up.

I can see how this might be different for larger cities. Thinking of Vancouver, if one lived and worked downtown, I could see how a real gas detour might be necessary and/or be complicated (lineups, merging in/out). But in the same case, it's also unlikely that you have at-home charging, so you'd need to make accommodations or even longer detours for EV charging. The in-between of commutes within/near a large city (like I think you're implying with "exits") is probably the sweet spot of gas being a mild inconvenience of a detour, but probably having at-home charging for EVs. Sound about right?

I find this difference interesting, but in the interest of not "polluting" this OPs thread further will refrain from continuing the discussion on time to fill up gas cars here

 

[Tigers]

As I said, it definitely took you more than 5 minutes to fill up. From the time you decide to fill up your ICE to the time you pull away from the gas station is NOT 5 minutes. its kind of like people ignoring the amount of money they put as a down payment on a car, when they talk about how "low their payment is". I also have never driven a car that got its EPA rated mileage, but according to TMC I am an extreme outlier because everyone here talks about how their ICE car that got 30MPG got exactly that throughout its life of use, under all conditions.

I guarantee you that you were not hitting EPA rated MPG on your ICE car driving 70-80 on the freeway.

Sure - going 75-80 dropped it to probably 23-25 mpg, but normal daily driving where my commute was 80% hwy at 60-70mph, I only had to fill up a 10 gallon tank about once per week and no, I wasn't sitting there for 15 minutes LOL.

For Teslas, you're lucky if you get the max speed at superchargers (which, btw destroys your batteries) and you have to sit there for over an hour just to go from say 10% to 90%. And that's if you're lucky that a supercharger is anywhere near where you live, anywhere near your destination. For gas stations you pull over, it's 5 minutes fueling time pretty much any city/any town/anywhere in the country.

The fact is, these cars really are very inconvenient in 2020. Yes, if you have a set up where you can plug in over night at home, that's great. But what if you forget? Then it's hours of waiting in the middle of the day or likely driving out of your way to supercharge for 20-30 minutes.

Also, back on this same phantom drain topic, really kills the whole "SO MUCH CHEAPER THAN ICE!!!!!!!!" conversation. My LR M3 AWD is getting something like 50 usable kwh and that takes me 150 miles. Where I live, gas in 1.70/gallon and electricity is like 10-12 cents a kwh (depending on the rate)...knowing that 1) it takes me 100kwh to actually go 300 miles, that's around $10.00, not including the fact that you actually lose energy while charging that's not transferred into the car. So throw another 20-30% on there and all of a sudden, you are at $12-13. How about some wind? probably another $2-3.

My gf's prius gets a legit 40-50mpg, with a 7-8 gallon tank that she fills every 8-9 days and it costs her what? $14-16?

There are just a lot of promises with EVs and their abilities and I don't believe consumers are aware that they are very misleading. With all that being said, I love the drivetrain of the car. I've fine with paying a premium to drive it each mile (even with electricity supposedly cheaper) I love no sounds or shaking...but only getting 150 miles on 80% of the battery is f-ing awful and I wouldn't buy again knowing that.

 

[jjrandorin]

Sure - going 75-80 dropped it to probably 23-25 mpg, but normal daily driving where my commute was 80% hwy at 60-70mph, I only had to fill up a 10 gallon tank about once per week and no, I wasn't sitting there for 15 minutes LOL.

For Teslas, you're lucky if you get the max speed at superchargers (which, btw destroys your batteries) and you have to sit there for over an hour just to go from say 10% to 90%. And that's if you're lucky that a supercharger is anywhere near where you live, anywhere near your destination. For gas stations you pull over, it's 5 minutes fueling time pretty much any city/any town/anywhere in the country.

The fact is, these cars really are very inconvenient in 2020. Yes, if you have a set up where you can plug in over night at home, that's great. But what if you forget? Then it's hours of waiting in the middle of the day or likely driving out of your way to supercharge for 20-30 minutes.

Also, back on this same phantom drain topic, really kills the whole "SO MUCH CHEAPER THAN ICE!!!!!!!!" conversation. My LR M3 AWD is getting something like 50 usable kwh and that takes me 150 miles. Where I live, gas in 1.70/gallon and electricity is like 10-12 cents a kwh (depending on the rate)...knowing that 1) it takes me 100kwh to actually go 300 miles, that's around $10.00, not including the fact that you actually lose energy while charging that's not transferred into the car. So throw another 20-30% on there and all of a sudden, you are at $12-13. How about some wind? probably another $2-3.

My gf's prius gets a legit 40-50mpg, with a 7-8 gallon tank that she fills every 8-9 days and it costs here what? $14-16?

There are just a lot of promises with EVs and their abilities and I don't believe consumers are aware that they are very misleading. With all that being said, I love the drive train of the car. I love no sounds or shaking, so I am willing to pay a premium...but only getting 150 miles on 80% of the battery is f-ing awful and I wouldn't buy again knowing that.

None of what you just said applies to me. I have supercharged this car twice to see it works over the 1.5 years / 22k miles I have had it, so "supercharger speed" is a non issue. The car is MUCH more convenient for me than my gas car as I have said. Much less overall time, no planning for gas stations etc.

Your 'what if I forget to plug in????" statement... since I get 42 miles an hour on my 60amp circuit at home, its a litteral non issue. My normal work commute is 80 miles, which is between 80 and 120 "tesla miles" and its 2.5-3 hours to "fill up" and takes me 3-4 seconds to plug in when I get home. Gas is 3.50 a gallon here, and I have solar so my cost was cut about 60%.

I dont think EVs are for everyone (it sounds like it definitely was not the right move for you, at least at this point) but any blanket statements 1 way OR the other, are wrong. Its "inconvenient" for you, its MASSIVELY MORE convenient for me. Doesnt make either of us "right" but no, its not "massively inconvenient" for everyone.

 

[Tigers]

None of what you just said applies to me. I have supercharged this car twice to see it works over the 1.5 years / 22k miles I have had it, so "supercharger speed" is a non issue. The car is MUCH more convenient for me than my gas car as I have said. Much less overall time, no planning for gas stations etc.

Your 'what if I forget to plug in????" statement... since I get 42 miles an hour on my 60amp circuit at home, its a litteral non issue. My normal work commute is 80 miles, which is between 80 and 120 "tesla miles" and its 2.5-3 hours to "fill up" and takes me 3-4 seconds to plug in when I get home. Gas is 3.50 a gallon here, and I have solar so my cost was cut about 60%.

I dont think EVs are for everyone (it sounds like it definitely was not the right move for you, at least at this point) but any blanket statements 1 way OR the other, are wrong. Its "inconvenient" for you, its MASSIVELY MORE convenient for me. Doesnt make either of us "right" but no, its not "massively inconvenient" for everyone.

Sure, you're in California I can agree on that, what a nightmare that state is with COL, so yeah when you are paying double or triple the price for everything vs everyone else, I can feel your pain on that.

But I think you are the exception of owners, not the rule...probably the vast majority at best get half the charging speed of what you are at home (unless they want to pay $1,000 - $2000 to have the Tesla charger installed) and probably the vast majority are paying for electricity without solar panels (and if not, you're still paying for solar panels, which are also expensive). When you do the math on all of these things, you're talking a decade or so before anything becomes break even, this car is not going to be getting 100 miles usable per charge in 10 years.

I don't see why an EV wasn't right for me. I rent a single family home, I have a charger at home, I can charge what would be considered a pretty decent rate (22/mph), all I am simply stating here is that, there's a broad misunderstanding and "mismarketing" on the capability of the car's range. No way you can spin it, they do not get anywhere near the rated range in the vast majority of conditions, not even close.

I bought the $52,000 model 3 because I wanted the option to not to have to plug it in for 4-5 days at a home if I didn't want. If I was cool with just plugging it every single night, hell why not by a used chevy bolt for $15,000 and only be able to drive 100 miles or so? What exactly am I paying a premium price for?