SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
As someone both uneducated and untrained who has only used copper, I'm the right person to ask: why ?
I thought I had read that Alu may substitute if a big enough gauge is used.
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Home charging now stepping down to 24 amps during the charging session
- Thread starter eddieb3
- Start date
I thought I had read that Alu may substitute if a big enough gauge is used.
RayK
Active Member
While I'm not an electrician, nor have I ever pulled wire for any power purposes, I recall that aluminum wiring was banned, or at least, highly discouraged, from being used due to overheating at the connections. Googling reveals many more details:
what's wrong with aluminum wiring - Google Search
what's wrong with aluminum wiring - Google Search
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Thanks.
Wikipedia says
That is a pretty good resume. It makes me think that implementation details are not followed in residential use.
RayK
Active Member
I took some time reading some of the links provided by Google. My semi-interest in this comes from when we bought our last two houses. Property inspections made a point to note that the electrical wiring was copper. Some of the homes in the 60-70s were built with Al wires and in the years hence became a problem due to fires that were traced back to the wiring. It looks like the main issue with Al wiring is that it needs to be used with the appropriate hardware (switches, outlets); stuff that has been rated to be used with Al. So yeah, implementation is critical.
And I believe you are correct with the up-sizing of Al vs. Cu wiring. But physics rules... Aluminum will always be more softer than copper and thus more prone to accidental damage when stripping insulation or being tightened under screws.
And I believe you are correct with the up-sizing of Al vs. Cu wiring. But physics rules... Aluminum will always be more softer than copper and thus more prone to accidental damage when stripping insulation or being tightened under screws.
UPDATE: When I charged my car a few days ago, I took temperature readings on the 4 big red and black wires before and after the charging session. The back black wire was the one that fried previously. The session lasted a little over 3 hours. Everything is working fine. Just wanted to look at the temps to see if they looked out of whack. Before charging, all 4 wires were around 75 degrees. Within 1-2 minutes after charging finished: Red front: 99; Black front: 103; Red back: 111; Black back: 105. Per my electrician, the new wire used is rated at 90c (194f), so we are fine at this point. I will periodically check the temperature in the future and see if theses temps remain reasonable.
Thanks for everyone's help and advice on this issue.
Thanks for everyone's help and advice on this issue.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Indeed !
... But don't throw that temp gun in the drawer just yet. You will be amazed at how handy it can be. I measure my car, the road, the stucco on my house, ... and my frying oil, to name a few.
Cheers
Dmagyar
Member
You don’t need to explain that to me, I was just asking if that was one of the elements to check. I’ve spent over 40 years in the IBEW. (International Brotherhood of Electrical workers)
For the record I’ll bet there’s a substantial percentage of all your homes being fed by aluminum conductors, so your response is only correct conditionally...
Dmagyar
Member
It seems there is a general lack of knowledge, and maybe I can shed some needed input regarding copper versus aluminum conductors.
Back in the 60’s some homes were built using aluminum conductors in their 15 and 20 circuits, this “romex” had plenty of problems and was discontinued. Anyone’s home wired with these small branch circuits need some remedial extension of these conductors, by a “pig tailing’ method where the aluminum is pressure crimped to copper ends, which are more malleable and resist the breakage that plagued the original aluminum.
When moving up in size, (past the awg #14, and #12 gauges) aluminum conductors are used across the globe for circuits of higher amperage, and have not seen any premature failures as the smaller gauge aluminum experienced.
Back in the 60’s some homes were built using aluminum conductors in their 15 and 20 circuits, this “romex” had plenty of problems and was discontinued. Anyone’s home wired with these small branch circuits need some remedial extension of these conductors, by a “pig tailing’ method where the aluminum is pressure crimped to copper ends, which are more malleable and resist the breakage that plagued the original aluminum.
When moving up in size, (past the awg #14, and #12 gauges) aluminum conductors are used across the globe for circuits of higher amperage, and have not seen any premature failures as the smaller gauge aluminum experienced.
RayK
Active Member
I don't want to put words into the MGES' keyboard, but I think what he was referring to, and what this thread is essentially discussing, is interior electrical wiring. A few years back I lost power to the house; the only one on the block so I knew it was something in my drop or panel. Ended up being the underground main feed of aluminum wire had essentially turned to powder at one point. My understanding is that PG&E replaced it with the same type of aluminum wiring. At the same time I upgrade my panel to 200A. So yes, Al is still being used/recommended in the industry to deliver electrical power, but not in branch wiring inside homes.
@Dmagyar & @RayK - no worries! You guy are totally on point.
additionally for others reading this, there was a time when aluminum was used in residential applications. go up one size with Al and save a few bucks. but over-time the (1) "spring-back" effect of metal is too soft with Al compared to copper. When the conductor heats up during use, the conductor expands when hot and contracts when cold. That once tightened screw around that Al wire is now loose and causing arc's-n-sparks. Al does this a lot worse than copper does. (2) Al oxidizes and corrodes. Al requires an application of anti-ox that covers all exposed Aluminum. this prevents oxidation. In my experience with Al residential homes, i never seen it used. Some insurance companies now require copper conversion at all outlets and switches. The use of Coplaum connectors that have anti-ox inside to prevent oxidation of Al conductors and allows the conversion to copper. Aluminum does have its place tho. I have used it many times. Its lightweight and is easy to install. Usually its large sized like 500kcmil used in commerical/industrial service installations. But proper use of it, proper installation of it, and most importantly the proper upkeep of it, is vital. if anyone tries to use Al for any residential application, do your do diligence and report them.
additionally for others reading this, there was a time when aluminum was used in residential applications. go up one size with Al and save a few bucks. but over-time the (1) "spring-back" effect of metal is too soft with Al compared to copper. When the conductor heats up during use, the conductor expands when hot and contracts when cold. That once tightened screw around that Al wire is now loose and causing arc's-n-sparks. Al does this a lot worse than copper does. (2) Al oxidizes and corrodes. Al requires an application of anti-ox that covers all exposed Aluminum. this prevents oxidation. In my experience with Al residential homes, i never seen it used. Some insurance companies now require copper conversion at all outlets and switches. The use of Coplaum connectors that have anti-ox inside to prevent oxidation of Al conductors and allows the conversion to copper. Aluminum does have its place tho. I have used it many times. Its lightweight and is easy to install. Usually its large sized like 500kcmil used in commerical/industrial service installations. But proper use of it, proper installation of it, and most importantly the proper upkeep of it, is vital. if anyone tries to use Al for any residential application, do your do diligence and report them.
This is a problem with the charger! Don’t open the chargers or try to modify your wiring/panels. The over-the-air patch is designed to throttle the charge rate to prevent the charging interruption that many people have been experiencing. We have two gen 3 chargers in separate garages and my house construction was finished in April with modern wiring and panels. We charged every night simultaneously at 48A each without any issues until one of the chargers developed the interrupted charging fault. After the OTA software update for this charger it went from 48A and is now capped at 24A. Based on another forum it seems like the gen 3 charges sold since May are the problem (now conveniently unavailable on line for 3 weeks since this issue cropped up). My other gen 3 charger was purchased in March and it still works fine at 48A. When I charge the car that has the problematic charger with the good charger, the car charges fine all the way through at 48A.
Pluturi
Member
Firmware 1.3.0 now available for Gen 3 HPWC. Let's hope this addresses the "phantom" overheating.
Pluturi
Member
FYI, I tried mine again last night after getting the new firmware (1.3.0). On the plus side, it maintained 37-40A throughout the entire 4 hours of charging, but as before it only stayed at 48A for the first 30 minutes or so unfortunately.
I'm having a similar problem. I got my Tesla in mid-July, and had a Gen 3 wall connector installed to a 50A breaker (40A charging). It was charging fine until about a month ago when I noticed the current would drop in half to 20A after about an hour. The wall connector has a blinking red light indicating this is an overheating issue, but nothing feels hot to the touch. I opened the wall connector (after turning off the breaker) and noticed that the red wire has some bumps on it (photo attached). Could this be a sign of overheating?
Attachments
android04
Active Member
Those bumps are just wrinkles in the UV resistant outer jacket from bending the wire during installation. Nothing to be concerned about and not a sign of overheating.
This is a Tesla-known issue. They apparently had a bad batch of Wall Connectors that think they are overheating. The unit steps down charging rate in an attempt to cool it down. I called Tesla and they sent a replacement with a FedEx pickup for the bad one.
P-Lo801
Member
I'm bumping this thread because i'm experiencing a similar issue with my WC with 14-50 plug that I purchased 9/2019. I have a 50a breaker, and would consistently get 40a allowing me to charge 37mi/hr/9.6kW.
But in the last few months, I noticed that it would start from 40a for the first 10 minutes or so then drop to 30 amp, and in some cases even below that. Just now, I tried sitting in my car to wait for this to happen so I can take a screenshot of the error message. So it started at 40a as expected, charging the car at 9-10kW for the first 10 minutes or so, then it dropped to 30a on the car. But, I never got an error message.
Does anyone know why i'm not getting an error message?
It's raining out in my area, so I'll wait until the break from rain to open up the WC so I can take a look at the wires.
But in the last few months, I noticed that it would start from 40a for the first 10 minutes or so then drop to 30 amp, and in some cases even below that. Just now, I tried sitting in my car to wait for this to happen so I can take a screenshot of the error message. So it started at 40a as expected, charging the car at 9-10kW for the first 10 minutes or so, then it dropped to 30a on the car. But, I never got an error message.
Does anyone know why i'm not getting an error message?
It's raining out in my area, so I'll wait until the break from rain to open up the WC so I can take a look at the wires.
TBrownTX
Active Member
Have an electrician come and check the connections, could be a loose connection generating heat.
Tim
Tim
Nikola3327 hit it right on the head I believe that's the problem I had the same situation here in Florida. My wall charger was doing the something and I loss my WiFi connection some how. Once I got it back on the wifi haven't had any problems since.
puckpurnell
Member
I have a NEMA 1450 outlet on a 50 am breaker. I regularly have 32 amps charging @ 29 miles per hour. It's been the same since I first installed it at my old house and is that way now at my new place. Occasionally, the charge starts slowly but then it builds and levels off consistently at 29 mph and 32 amps.
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