HOT Panel Pics!!!

[AlanSubie4Life]

Hi,
I know you guys like to look at panels. So I'm posting some hot pics. This is at my parents' house, and I haven't had a chance to remove the cover, but wanted to get thoughts/guesses from the folks here about what they think the prospects are of adding a 14-50 or even an HWPC install to this panel. I can't make use of such a connector, I'm too far away, but my brother(s) might be able to.

This looks like a 200A panel to me, but frankly I don't understand exactly how it works...since I see no sign of an actual 200A breaker...instead there appear to be 6 separate service disconnects. One of which (the 60A main) looks like it may go to all the lower breakers? (Again, haven't taken the front off so I am just guessing.) Quite different from my panel at home. Anyway, that's the sort of thing I would like explained so I can understand how it works.

I'm kind of wondering whether I'll find the upper two left "service disconnects" will turn out to be unused.

Any possible safety issues? Comments? Is there sufficient margin on the panel load calc to add the extra amps? How about a 60A breaker HPWC?

I think my dad might even be convinced to get an EV himself (he really thinks they make no sense, even though he's an accomplished electrical engineer...very resistant to change I guess...and cost...) if it turned out adding fast home charging was a relatively easy task (run Romex cable through the attic of the garage, or run in conduit, depending on what was easiest).

Anyway, let me know about your guesses & knowledge on a panel like this. If I get a chance, I'll pull the cover off this Saturday and then we can confirm peoples' guesses.

This panel was put in by the owner and builder of the house (in early 70s he built 2 houses with very similar floorplans in our neighborhood). He lived in the house for a few years before my parents bought it.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Well, its a 200A panel. Its hard to tell how loaded it is without knowing the double breaker amperages. They are hard to read from the posted picture. Can you let me know what the amps listed on the six disconnect breakers and the one double breaker at the bottom?

 

[Sophias_dad]

That's a very strange panel indeed. The wiring diagram suggests that you really have two 'banks' of breakers below the assorted 'mains' above, and they are fed by the two paired red breakers (left center, left lower) of those assorted 'mains'.

I'd be interested to know what the lower right double breaker is for, of the lower block. Its unlabeled, and you have so many other 240v loads already accounted for, its hard to guess what it is.

Sadly, if you can't upgrade those two red breakers, you really can't consider adding a 60 amp breaker to either of the lower banks, since that would be essentially ~all the power for the bank.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Well, its a 200A panel. Its hard to tell how loaded it is without knowing the double breaker amperages. They are hard to read from the posted picture. Can you let me know what the amps listed on the six disconnect breakers and the one double breaker at the bottom?

It is legible in the pics, barely, but for the doubles:

Orange - 60A
Gray - 40A
Green - 30A

For the singles (most of them anyway):

Black - 20A
Blue - 15A

 

[Sophias_dad]

If I'm reading the panel correctly, the lower bus bars are rated to 125 amps, but the factory-installed jumper wire to get from the red 'main' breakers down to those lower panels is only #4, rated to 70 amps. This implies to me that you could indeed upgrade one of those red main's to 125amps(or a bit less, for some margin!), if you replaced the factory-installed jumpers with the appropriate gauge. NOTE: this is not a stick it in and hope it works thing...unless you know there's another breaker out there limiting the current into this panel to 200 amps, you could very likely overload the incoming wiring and/or bus bars of the upper section. It looks like you can do that already, in fact!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'd be interested to know what the lower right double breaker is for, of the lower block. Its unlabeled, and you have so many other 240v loads already accounted for, its hard to guess what it is.

May be open/unused, as it is unlabeled. It may also be for an old electric water heater...which the house does not have anymore. Could be used, but only 20A /240V is fine of course, but not preferred.

Sadly, if you can't upgrade those two red breakers, you really can't consider adding a 60 amp breaker to either of the lower banks, since that would be essentially ~all the power for the bank.

I’m rather hoping that maybe the middle left service disconnect (60A) is completely unused and that could be used for an HPWC.

As you say, it looks like more info will be needed about the service main wiring, for sure. Should be able to see it when the panel cover is removed.

Keep those guesses coming.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If I'm reading the panel correctly, the lower bus bars are rated to 125 amps, but the factory-installed jumper wire to get from the red 'main' breakers down to those lower panels is only #4, rated to 70 amps. This implies to me that you could indeed upgrade one of those red main's to 125amps(or a bit less, for some margin!), if you replaced the factory-installed jumpers with the appropriate gauge.

I’d guess I’d be pretty leery about doing that. Just because the wire is factory-installed in the panel, and maybe this was not REALLY the intent. The upper service disconnects could have a weak point on their connection from the incoming main bus bar to where they branch out to the breakers. No idea really.

 

[Sophias_dad]

You really should do a load calculation, you might not have much more available.

You probably shouldn't try this change on your own, even if the city/town allows it.

If nothing else, you can probably move the 30 amp breaker for the current water heater into an actual subpanel you'd add that would supply just the current water heater and the HPWC. You'd still want to be sure you understand the limits of the upper section of that panel, though.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You really should do a load calculation, you might not have much more available.

You probably shouldn't try this change on your own, even if the city/town allows it.

For sure need to understand the service entry wiring and the upper part of the panel. Hoping the load calc won’t be necessary (after understanding the upper part and its limits), if I don’t need to tap into the lower part.

I’m not too worried about doing this on my own though. It’s only electrical work - it really doesn’t get much simpler than electrical work, once the limits on the wiring and panel are well understood.

Recent experiences on this forum with “electricians” tend to encourage me to rely on my own experience, as well. I can connect a ground wire and bond it to the neutral with the best of them.

...unless you know there's another breaker out there limiting the current into this panel to 200 amps, you could very likely overload the incoming wiring and/or bus bars of the upper section. It looks like you can do that already, in fact!

Totally agreed on this. That is the main thing that puzzled me about this setup. Basically it looks like you could pull 360A if you used 6 60A breakers at the top. Which would totally be a terrible idea. But if it’s a 200A panel with a 200A capable feed, I do feel it must be possible to add a significant amount of additional amps (not really adding - just making use of the (presumably) unused 60A breaker). Though 60A breaker might be pushing it. Could always make it 50A or 40A; would be fine.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The wiring diagram suggests that you really have two 'banks' of breakers below the assorted 'mains' above, and they are fed by the two paired red breakers (left center, left lower) of those assorted 'mains'.

You are right, it does look that way. Not sure why both 60A breakers are not labeled “main”, but certainly the diagram suggests what you say. Which rules out that 60A breaker for use. Maybe the gray 40A will turn out to be a spare...since it is not labeled.

 

[eprosenx]

Hi,
I know you guys like to look at panels. So I'm posting some hot pics. This is at my parents' house, and I haven't had a chance to remove the cover, but wanted to get thoughts/guesses from the folks here about what they think the prospects are of adding a 14-50 or even an HWPC install to this panel. I can't make use of such a connector, I'm too far away, but my brother(s) might be able to.

This looks like a 200A panel to me, but frankly I don't understand exactly how it works...since I see no sign of an actual 200A breaker...instead there appear to be 6 separate service disconnects. One of which (the 60A main) looks like it may go to all the lower breakers? (Again, haven't taken the front off so I am just guessing.) Quite different from my panel at home. Anyway, that's the sort of thing I would like explained so I can understand how it works.

I'm kind of wondering whether I'll find the upper two left "service disconnects" will turn out to be unused.

Any possible safety issues? Comments? Is there sufficient margin on the panel load calc to add the extra amps? How about a 60A breaker HPWC?

I think my dad might even be convinced to get an EV himself (he really thinks they make no sense, even though he's an accomplished electrical engineer...very resistant to change I guess...and cost...) if it turned out adding fast home charging was a relatively easy task (run Romex cable through the attic of the garage, or run in conduit, depending on what was easiest).

Anyway, let me know about your guesses & knowledge on a panel like this. If I get a chance, I'll pull the cover off this Saturday and then we can confirm peoples' guesses.

This panel was put in by the owner and builder of the house (in early 70s he built 2 houses with very similar floorplans in our neighborhood). He lived in the house for a few years before my parents bought it.

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It is indeed a 200a panel. Split configurations like this were extremely common during that time frame as a 200a main breaker was very expensive. Electrical code allows up to six disconnects so they took advantage.

Yes you can overload this main service feed. You need to use load calculations to keep from overloading in this case. The reality though is that in houses with natural gas in Portland almost nobody gets close to a 200a service capacity. (Unless it is a massive house)

I know of no safety concerns for this brand panel. You should be able to easily get new breakers for it I think. I don’t personally love the lack of a 200a main, but it is totally legal and safe when managed properly.

This configuration is one I have not seen before. It has two main disconnects that each feed half of the bottom sections. Eight breaker positions on each section. Six of the eight support tandem breakers. So you could cram a bunch more breakers in here if needed.

That's a very strange panel indeed. The wiring diagram suggests that you really have two 'banks' of breakers below the assorted 'mains' above, and they are fed by the two paired red breakers (left center, left lower) of those assorted 'mains'.

I'd be interested to know what the lower right double breaker is for, of the lower block. Its unlabeled, and you have so many other 240v loads already accounted for, its hard to guess what it is.

Sadly, if you can't upgrade those two red breakers, you really can't consider adding a 60 amp breaker to either of the lower banks, since that would be essentially ~all the power for the bank.

I want to know what the very top left 40a breaker is for? And yeah, the far bottom right double wide 240v one. AC perhaps for one?

If I'm reading the panel correctly, the lower bus bars are rated to 125 amps, but the factory-installed jumper wire to get from the red 'main' breakers down to those lower panels is only #4, rated to 70 amps. This implies to me that you could indeed upgrade one of those red main's to 125amps(or a bit less, for some margin!), if you replaced the factory-installed jumpers with the appropriate gauge. NOTE: this is not a stick it in and hope it works thing...unless you know there's another breaker out there limiting the current into this panel to 200 amps, you could very likely overload the incoming wiring and/or bus bars of the upper section. It looks like you can do that already, in fact!

I probably would not want to try messing with upgrading the capacity of the lower bus units with a bigger breaker. If I was to go that far I would just replace the whole panel. With that being said, it sounds like the water heater may now be gas? So re-using that position of be main service disconnect area of the panel would allow any size breaker that the load calculations allowed for. I would not be surprised if a 60a breaker would be fine.

I would really like to see several good quality photos of the inside of this panel from multiple angles. It might be instantly obvious that some positions are unused and it would tell us something more about the panel configuration.

You need to try to at least identify what all the 240v loads are. Then at some point do a load calculation.

I think EV charging of some form on this panel is totally doable. You also can add tandems in the lower sections as needed if you wanted to add other relatively small circuits (so the panel is not physically full right now even though it looks like it is).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I want to know what the very top left 40a breaker is for? And yeah, the far bottom right double wide 240v one. AC perhaps for one?

I want to know what the 40A is for too. I will let you know if I take the cover off this weekend.

The bottom far right I assumed was for the old water heater (now gas), but that is obviously wrong - it was the 30A 240V in the upper disconnect - and that is no longer used. So I guess that water heater breaker would be the super obvious location, and could set up an HPWC at 24A relatively easily just using that with no additional load calc really needed, I assume? But that is a bit weak for an HPWC (though perfectly fine for 95% of use cases of course). And it sounds like you are saying likely that breaker could be increased in size (obviously along with a new adequately sized wire run). With a load calc.

In any case, for load calculations, the fact that there is no water heater anymore means that for sure we have either 24A or 30A (not sure how to count it) available without even needing load calcs...right?

The house has no AC and really has no need for it.

I would really like to see several good quality photos of the inside of this panel from multiple angles. It might be instantly obvious that some positions are unused and it would tell us something more about the panel configuration.

I will post them if I get them.

You also can add tandems in the lower sections as needed if you wanted to add other relatively small circuits (so the panel is not physically full right now even though it looks like it is).

Thanks for pointing this out. Could be helpful, though I think there would be complications for overloading the service disconnect 60A feed, of course. As already pointed out, not going to be able to add a few tandems and then slap a 60A two-pole breaker in the bottom section.

I am holding out hope that not only is the water heater service disconnect unused, but that the 40A two-pole in the upper left is also somehow I unused. Then we could upsize that to 60A, redo the load calculation, subtracting the non existent water heater, and see how it adds up.

I guess we will see.

 

[eprosenx]

I want to know what the 40A is for too. I will let you know if I take the cover off this weekend.

The bottom far right I assumed was for the old water heater (now gas), but that is obviously wrong - it was the 30A 240V in the upper disconnect - and that is no longer used. So I guess that water heater breaker would be the super obvious location, and could set up an HPWC at 24A relatively easily just using that with no additional load calc really needed, I assume? But that is a bit weak for an HPWC (though perfectly fine for 95% of use cases of course). And it sounds like you are saying likely that breaker could be increased in size (obviously along with a new adequately sized wire run). With a load calc.

In any case, for load calculations, the fact that there is no water heater anymore means that for sure we have either 24A or 30A (not sure how to count it) available without even needing load calcs...right?

The house has no AC and really has no need for it.



I will post them if I get them.



Thanks for pointing this out. Could be helpful, though I think there would be complications for overloading the service disconnect 60A feed, of course. As already pointed out, not going to be able to add a few tandems and then slap a 60A two-pole breaker in the bottom section.

I am holding out hope that not only is the water heater service disconnect unused, but that the 40A two-pole in the upper left is also somehow I unused. Then we could upsize that to 60A, redo the load calculation, subtracting the non existent water heater, and see how it adds up.

I guess we will see.

So I would not necessarily assume that since the water heater was decommissioned that the capacity load calc wise is still available. Another project could possibly have eaten up that capacity and not removed the breaker. But yes, most likely that is available.

I would need to go back through the load calc formulas (and optional formulas) to confirm how water heating loads are handled compared to EV’s. I think EV’s don’t get any demand factors applied to them while other appliances do. So load calc wise, 24a for a water heater and 24a for an EV may not be treated the same. This requires some further investigation.

The load calculation requirements are a mess. It is about as clear as mud to me...