How does a certified electrician make this mistake?

[SMAlset]

If you run into resistance redoing the wiring and going back to the 20A breaker, I’ll bet your building inspector will step in and see it gets done. Not the first way I’d go but if necessary.

BTW were you ok on the load calculations with the 20A installed or did they downsize to meet numbers?

 

[CrazyRabbit]

... they used to be 20 amp breakers but they're now 15 amp breakers on the distribution panel with 14 gauge romex. My first conclusion was that perhaps the house was built wrong and that they should never have had 20 amp breakers ...

So then I realized that those were extended loads. Next I climbed into the attic and removed the junction box cover and verified that those two loads were indeed 12 gauge but extended with 14 gauge.
...

how many plugs are on this circuit? if i understand correctly TWO yellow romex cables are wired in parallel to ONE white romex which is on a 15 amp breaker in a junction box in the attic.

my first thoughts is that you really have TWO 20 amp circuits on one 15 amp breaker. i'm thinking both circuits should be on there own 20 amp breaker. if no room in loads panel then and a sub panel should be installed..

 

[sorka]

If you run into resistance redoing the wiring and going back to the 20A breaker, I’ll bet your building inspector will step in and see it gets done. Not the first way I’d go but if necessary.

BTW were you ok on the load calculations with the 20A installed or did they downsize to meet numbers?

I seriously doubt they even did them. I did the 220 calcs myself a decade ago when I added a POS water heater under my kitchen sink.

The calcs shoulds have been done as part of the plans when doing the MSP upgrade and adding the 200 amp distribution panel after the TEG. I doubt they down rated my GFCI circuits because of load calcs and even if they did, at least for the kitchen GFCI it violates code.

 

[sorka]

how many plugs are on this circuit? if i understand correctly TWO yellow romex cables are wired in parallel to ONE white romex which is on a 15 amp breaker in a junction box in the attic.

my first thoughts is that you really have TWO 20 amp circuits on one 15 amp breaker. i'm thinking both circuits should be on there own 20 amp breaker. if no room in loads panel then and a sub panel should be installed..

The kitchen GFCI and garage GFCI circuits were both extended with 14 gauge romex and down rated to 15 amp. Both those circuits have multiple 20 amp (side ways prong) receptacles.

The house was built in 1997 (finaled April '98) just as the switchover to yellow NM jackets for 12 gauge was about to happen so all my 20 amp circuits are still on white. You might think the electrician got confused by this but he still put the 20 amp breakers on all the other white 20 gauge romex loads.

 

[h2ofun]

The kitchen GFCI and garage GFCI circuits were both extended with 14 gauge romex and down rated to 15 amp. Both those circuits have multiple 20 amp (side ways prong) receptacles.

The house was built in 1997 (finaled April '98) just as the switchover to yellow NM jackets for 12 gauge was about to happen so all my 20 amp circuits are still on white. You might think the electrician got confused by this but he still put the 20 amp breakers on all the other white 20 gauge romex loads.

Is it not illegal to have a 15 amp circuit with 20 amp receptacles?

 

[sorka]

Is it not illegal to have a 15 amp circuit with 20 amp receptacles?

Yup which is the point of this entire thread

 

[CrazyRabbit]

The kitchen GFCI and garage GFCI circuits were both extended with 14 gauge romex and down rated to 15 amp. Both those circuits have multiple 20 amp (side ways prong) receptacles.

The house was built in 1997 (finaled April '98) just as the switchover to yellow NM jackets for 12 gauge was about to happen so all my 20 amp circuits are still on white. You might think the electrician got confused by this but he still put the 20 amp breakers on all the other white 20 gauge romex loads.

did you not say two yellow romex are wired in parallel to one white romex in the junction box in the attic to the service panel? or am i mistaken???
or are you saying two 20 amp (individual) circuits were extended with white romex (individually).

 

[sorka]

did you not say two yellow romex are wired in parallel to one white romex in the junction box in the attic to the service panel? or am i mistaken???
or are you saying two 20 amp (individual) circuits were extended with white romex (individually).

I never said anything like that.

 

[CrazyRabbit]

I never said anything like that.

so you have white 12 gauge extended with white 14 gauge.

 

[sorka]

so you have white 12 gauge extended with white 14 gauge.

Yes.

 

[sorka]

Another odd thing that he did. I have more double pole breakers than before. I asked him after the install and he said that 3 wire romex (with red and black) always has to be a double pole breaker. That makes sense but now I just realized that the extra double pole breakers are all wired up to TWO 12/2s NOT 12/3s. Those extra ones he wrapped red tape on the end of the black wire for each pair. So 4 previous single standalone 20 amp breakers are now two two pole breakers. I traced each wire back up and 12/2s each running to completely different circuits. Not really sure what to make of it.

So it turns out the wires even though pretty tight space wise all freely move up to the junction box in the attic.

 

[miimura]

Another odd thing that he did. I have more double pole breakers than before. I asked him after the install and he said that 3 wire romex (with red and black) always has to be a double pole breaker. That makes sense but now I just realized that the extra double pole breakers are all wired up to TWO 12/2s NOT 12/3s. Those extra ones he wrapped red tape on the end of the black wire for each pair. So 4 previous single standalone 20 amp breakers are now two two pole breakers. I traced each wire back up and 12/2s each running to completely different circuits. Not really sure what to make of it.

So it turns out the wires even though pretty tight space wise all freely move up to the junction box in the attic.

Running separate 120V loads off double pole breakers is very strange. The only time I have seen that is when you have separate circuits on a duplex outlet like a dishwasher and disposal. Even then, it is common trip, not actually a double pole breaker.

 

[wwhitney]

Another odd thing that he did. I have more double pole breakers than before.

Definitely sounds like they ran out of 20A single pole breakers. Get them back to fix these mistakes.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[sorka]

Running separate 120V loads off double pole breakers is very strange. The only time I have seen that is when you have separate circuits on a duplex outlet like a dishwasher and disposal. Even then, it is common trip, not actually a double pole breaker.

I have exactly one duplex outlet in my house and it's under the sink and that is a single 14/3 wire that feeds it.

 

[wwhitney]

A normal receptacle is duplex, it has two places to put in a plug.

If you have side by side duplex receptacles (or a single split wired duplex) fed by a 14/3, that should be on a 15A double pole breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[sorka]

A normal receptacle is duplex, it has two places to put in a plug.

If you have side by side duplex receptacles (or a single split wired duplex) fed by a 14/3, that should be on a 15A double pole breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes. It's a single receptacle with the top being driven by the red wire and the bottom being driven by the black wire all from the same 14/3 romex going back to a 15 amp 2-pole breaker. There's a cut on the hot side that joins both plugs together so they can be driven separately. This is the same now as it was before the panel upgrade.

 

[rjpjnk]

Yes. It's a single receptacle with the top being driven by the red wire and the bottom being driven by the black wire all from the same 14/3 romex going back to a 15 amp 2-pole breaker.

This is a 2-pole breaker (2 different phases) and not a tandem (2 of the same phase), right? So if I'm following correctly, you have 240 volts inside this one duplex box. Two 120v outlets but the potential from the top hot to the bottom hot is 240v. I have no idea if this is code legal, but it seems unnecessarily dangerous.

 

[rjpjnk]

Another odd thing that he did. I have more double pole breakers than before. I asked him after the install and he said that 3 wire romex (with red and black) always has to be a double pole breaker. That makes sense but now I just realized that the extra double pole breakers are all wired up to TWO 12/2s NOT 12/3s. Those extra ones he wrapped red tape on the end of the black wire for each pair. So 4 previous single standalone 20 amp breakers are now two two pole breakers. I traced each wire back up and 12/2s each running to completely different circuits. Not really sure what to make of it.

So it turns out the wires even though pretty tight space wise all freely move up to the junction box in the attic.

What an interesting mess he's left you. I really must get your electrician's name!

 

[BGbreeder]

This is a 2-pole breaker (2 different phases) and not a tandem (2 of the same phase), right? So if I'm following correctly, you have 240 volts inside this one duplex box. Two 120v outlets but the potential from the top hot to the bottom hot is 240v. I have no idea if this is code legal, but it seems unnecessarily dangerous.

It is ok per code, AFAIK. It goes by a variety of names, but the common description is a "shared neutral", or a "multi wire branch circuit". It lets you have one duplex with two circuits in it for a garbage disposal and a second item, such as an instant hot water heater, or RO unit. That said, I am not personally a fan as in other versions of it, you can have issues with the neutral coming loose.

Just to be clear: @sorka should have a red, a black, a white and a ground, often referred to as "14/3 with ground."

Now the extension of a 20Amp circuit with 14ga is just wrong, (unsafe), as is a 15Amp breaker with 20Amp outlets and the latter annoying/unsafe due to nuisance trips as @sorka experienced.

Due to Covid, there are shortages of all sorts of things, but that in no way condones substandard work.

All the best,

BG

 

[sorka]

It is ok per code, AFAIK. It goes by a variety of names, but the common description is a "shared neutral", or a "multi wire branch circuit". It lets you have one duplex with two circuits in it for a garbage disposal and a second item, such as an instant hot water heater, or RO unit. That said, I am not personally a fan as in other versions of it, you can have issues with the neutral coming loose.

That duplex receptacle has the garbage disposal and instant hot plugged into it