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How Long Till Solar Powered Car?
- Thread starter tander
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In large city cores, most car parking is underground or in big garages as surface level parking is too valuable. In industrial parks and such, parking is usually in open lots surrounding the buildings.
There is another issue with solar panels, they need to be kept clean or their efficiency drops. Road conditions are among the grittiest around. The need to keep the panels clean requires more water. Most professional car washes today recycle water, but people washing cars at home usually let the water flow into the storm drain. If you take your solar powered car to the professional car wash every day, that will save more water over washing it yourself, but it is an extra expense of $5-$10 a day as well as extra time you have to take out of your day to do it.
Of the technologies that will almost certainly come down the pike in the next 10 years, battery concentration is probably the easiest. The current batteries used in the Tesla are a commercially available cell that is not that space efficient. Redesigning the individual cells to fit into the available space will probably allow an 85KW battery to get about 30-40% smaller. That's simply an engineering and manufacturing job, no scientific breakthrough needed.
We might see a new battery technology that is better than lithium ion, but that's more dependent on the science, which is less predictable.
For some situations, a car rooftop solar array might be of some use, but I don't think it will ever catch on as a mainstream product. We'll see what happens. The nature of science is such that we can make some predictions based on technologies in the lab today, and we can dream about technologies that are being researched, but some technologies have proven to be elusive, even with a lot of R&D. We've been trying to do hot fusion since the 1950s. We can make very short fusion reactions, which are very destructive (nuclear weapons), but we have yet to have much success with sustained reactions that would be useful for energy production.
Bill
There is another issue with solar panels, they need to be kept clean or their efficiency drops. Road conditions are among the grittiest around. The need to keep the panels clean requires more water. Most professional car washes today recycle water, but people washing cars at home usually let the water flow into the storm drain. If you take your solar powered car to the professional car wash every day, that will save more water over washing it yourself, but it is an extra expense of $5-$10 a day as well as extra time you have to take out of your day to do it.
Of the technologies that will almost certainly come down the pike in the next 10 years, battery concentration is probably the easiest. The current batteries used in the Tesla are a commercially available cell that is not that space efficient. Redesigning the individual cells to fit into the available space will probably allow an 85KW battery to get about 30-40% smaller. That's simply an engineering and manufacturing job, no scientific breakthrough needed.
We might see a new battery technology that is better than lithium ion, but that's more dependent on the science, which is less predictable.
For some situations, a car rooftop solar array might be of some use, but I don't think it will ever catch on as a mainstream product. We'll see what happens. The nature of science is such that we can make some predictions based on technologies in the lab today, and we can dream about technologies that are being researched, but some technologies have proven to be elusive, even with a lot of R&D. We've been trying to do hot fusion since the 1950s. We can make very short fusion reactions, which are very destructive (nuclear weapons), but we have yet to have much success with sustained reactions that would be useful for energy production.
Bill
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Sure, but while I don't have any numbers I'm fairly sure uncovered parking spaces far outnumber covered ones. When panels get a little cheaper and a little better I'd like to see them offered as an option. I'd certainly pick them over a pano roof and leather seats for example, neither of which offer any value to me.
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I don't think it's quite the issue you make it to be. Unlike stationary panels, car mounted panels get subjected to a high speed airflow every day they are driven. A few percentage points lost because of a layer of dust, if there is some, does not make them useless.
You haven't seen my car in the spring. A roof mounted solar array wouldn't be useless, but it could drop 50% in efficiency.
I could see car mounted solar panels as like sunroofs. Some people hate them and would never use them, others love them and use them all the time. My car only gets a few hours of sunlight a week. I park in the garage and work from home, so it's only exposed to the sun when the sun is out (this is the Northwest west of the Cascades where the winters can be dark and gloomy). I probably wouldn't opt for such an option. People who live in sunny climates, especially lower latitudes, and park their cars in the sun all day at work might get some benefit from them.
I don't see them catching on in a big way though. Maybe more like convertibles. There has been a small market for them since the hardtop was invented, but they have always been a small segment with fans who love them.
I could see car mounted solar panels as like sunroofs. Some people hate them and would never use them, others love them and use them all the time. My car only gets a few hours of sunlight a week. I park in the garage and work from home, so it's only exposed to the sun when the sun is out (this is the Northwest west of the Cascades where the winters can be dark and gloomy). I probably wouldn't opt for such an option. People who live in sunny climates, especially lower latitudes, and park their cars in the sun all day at work might get some benefit from them.
I don't see them catching on in a big way though. Maybe more like convertibles. There has been a small market for them since the hardtop was invented, but they have always been a small segment with fans who love them.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Possibly, but the difference is that a solar panel option returns some of that investment by providing tangible benefits, "free" electricity, and an end to vampire drain concerns. At some price point I think it might be quite popular, and some might get it just for the techie "cool" factor.
Assuming you mean increase efficiency 50%... that would mean that if it were sunny every day of the month in Texas and your car was outside every one of those days with a solar pano roof type addon (we'll go with 1 square meters at 20% efficiency, so about 200W max output) you'd gain about 100 miles of solar-enabled range in that month assuming zero losses and perfect sunlight.
So 50% means you would only drive 200 miles/mo? Not sure where this 50% number comes from...
100 miles is very optimistic, and is still only about 30kWh worth of power... in an entire month, so your panel will be literally making about $3 to $10/mo (depending on region) worth of power. At $1/W total cost (so, $200... super optimistic) you're looking at somewhere between 2 and 6 years to break even if there is never a cloudy day and it's summer year round... so more realistically 3x+ that timeframe (~6 to 18 years).
Definitely not worth it.
Plus I park in my garage... not much sun there.
Edit: Seems I misunderstood the post I quoted (see below).
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Right, somehow I completely missed the quote above.
Carry on.
Sorry, I should have quoted the post I was responding to.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
A prime case for a solar panel from another thread. Parked at an airport for what was supposed to be a 3 week trip, turned into 6 months. Vampire loads would be severe after that time in a Model S.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-a-solar-panel?p=967471&viewfull=1#post967471
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-a-solar-panel?p=967471&viewfull=1#post967471
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'd prefer the vehicle to be self sustaining and not dependent on an infrastructure that may not be in place. Airports may charge a premium for such services since it's a captive audience. Plus the airport charging doesn't help when the car is parked elsewhere. On board solar provides anti vampire protection, some amount of free charging, and could potentially eliminate the 12V battery early death problem. Right now the 12V is allowed to cycle up and down so that the DC/DC isn't always running to reduce vampire load, a solar panel means that during the day the DC/DC can keep the 12V always at 13.2V, reducing it's cycling load.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
I have to think you could auto-deploy 4-6 parabolic reflectors that concentrate rays onto 4-6 of those small NASA modules that are like 45% efficient. With tracking, that might be enough charge you back up from the morning commute each day plus the commute home from the night before.
Waaaay down the line there's no reason you couldn't get 50% efficiency from an area equivalent to 60% of the car's footprint. If a car can plug itself in, why can't it deploy its own array while parked?
Waaaay down the line there's no reason you couldn't get 50% efficiency from an area equivalent to 60% of the car's footprint. If a car can plug itself in, why can't it deploy its own array while parked?
Fisker did it on the Karma. Reading the forums someone did the math. It's estimated that the solar panels on the roof cost $5000 due to the curvature of the roof. The ROI was estimated at around 500 years. It gets far more complicated trying to put solar elsewhere on the car. It adds weight and a lot of cost for minimal return. It's also going to be delicate. A thin-film solar panel for the car would be a lot less expensive and better able to handle the curves, the drawback being it will be much less efficient. Also, unlike rooftop solar, the panels are not optimized by always pointing towards the sun, i.e. south where I am.
For the high cost and low return of putting solar on the car, the money is much better spent with a fixed solar installation. I'd much rather have the panoramic roof than solar.
For the high cost and low return of putting solar on the car, the money is much better spent with a fixed solar installation. I'd much rather have the panoramic roof than solar.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/first-fully-transparent-solar-power-cell/
There is tech to make glass into PV material without changing transparency. If this becomes practical it would be easy to add PV to all the windows and sunroof and possibly have transparent coatings on other surfaces.
While this would only produce very limited amounts of electricity it might still be useful for electric vehicles to gain charge rather than lose it while exposed to sunlight. It might mean they could be left parked indefinitely without any issues about battery depletion.
There is tech to make glass into PV material without changing transparency. If this becomes practical it would be easy to add PV to all the windows and sunroof and possibly have transparent coatings on other surfaces.
While this would only produce very limited amounts of electricity it might still be useful for electric vehicles to gain charge rather than lose it while exposed to sunlight. It might mean they could be left parked indefinitely without any issues about battery depletion.
DrGuest
Member
Someone will need to pay more than $300k to own this. I could see something like this some day, or some iteration there of. :wink:
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/evx-ventures-immortus-solar-sports-car
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/evx-ventures-immortus-solar-sports-car
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Well... let's use Elons 'first principles' approach... the surface area of that car is ~5 square meters... the concentration of solar energy is ~1kW/square meter. So the most power you can harvest (for the few hours the sun is directly overhead) is ~5kW... if your solar panels are an impossibly efficient 100%. Premium commercial cells are typically ~20% efficient, experimental cells are <45% efficient and there's likely a theoretical barrier that will prevent efficiencies higher that ~50%.
So... best case anytime soon is maaaaybe 1.5kW of solar... even if you were able to double the efficiency of a Model S... that's ~60 miles/day even on the sunniest day. The only real way to get a solar powered car isn't better solar or better EVs.... it's to move the Earth closer to the sun. Solar panels belong on buildings... not cars.
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rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
This. Don't worry about solar powered cars at all, it's a waste of time thinking about it.
Ding! Ding! Ding! There are 36 solar powered level 2 chargers in my employer's parking garage. Lots of solar powered cars here too, thanks to the 1.13 MW of solar panels. :smile:
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