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How to sue Tesla over historical claims
- Thread starter gearchruncher
- Start date
Looking for some advice from @gearchruncher or anybody else that can help!
2017 Model X owner. Paid for FSD capability when I bought the car but stuck on 2022.8.10.16 (no FSD beta, nor its latest reincarnation of FSD "Supervised"). I've had the HW3 and camera upgrades at no charge, but I'm still on MCU1.
I've tried emailing [email protected] a few times - no response. I've gone through the process of getting a quote for MCU2 from the local SC but unfortunately the information they gave was all over the place and often objectively inaccurate. They told me that 1) I already have FSD and 2) I'm already on the latest firmware "for my configuration". I was able to get them to say that "updating the Infotainment System would be a configuration update and would likely have a more recent firmware version" but nothing more specific. I laid out my argument for why MCU2 should be comped and my request was denied.
Next step is emailing the resolutions "team"
rolleyes and then off to small claims court.
Here is a draft email (thanks in part to @dbldwn02 for posting his) which I'd like advice on:
Any comments - good or bad?
Is this the correct and logical argument that I should use in small claims court?
When can I start the small claims court process?
Anything else I should be doing or trying in the meantime?
Thanks all!
2017 Model X owner. Paid for FSD capability when I bought the car but stuck on 2022.8.10.16 (no FSD beta, nor its latest reincarnation of FSD "Supervised"). I've had the HW3 and camera upgrades at no charge, but I'm still on MCU1.
I've tried emailing [email protected] a few times - no response. I've gone through the process of getting a quote for MCU2 from the local SC but unfortunately the information they gave was all over the place and often objectively inaccurate. They told me that 1) I already have FSD and 2) I'm already on the latest firmware "for my configuration". I was able to get them to say that "updating the Infotainment System would be a configuration update and would likely have a more recent firmware version" but nothing more specific. I laid out my argument for why MCU2 should be comped and my request was denied.
Next step is emailing the resolutions "team"
rolleyes and then off to small claims court.Here is a draft email (thanks in part to @dbldwn02 for posting his) which I'd like advice on:
Any comments - good or bad?
Is this the correct and logical argument that I should use in small claims court?
When can I start the small claims court process?
Anything else I should be doing or trying in the meantime?
Thanks all!
@Vagus -Email to resolutions is too long. Short is way better. They'll never respond, and likely never even read it, so the only point of sending one is so you can show it to the court proving you asked, and making your future court claim very clear. Your story about how you are a supporter of Tesla is pointless. Telsa's legal department doesn't care about you or your history with the brand or how this will reinforce their reputation for customer support, and neither will small claims court. Tesla legal is just going to evaluate the cost of responding vs not (well, and hiding in the corner trying not to get fired by Elon for merely existing). You need a simple DEMAND letter. You're well beyond hoping that asking nicely will get you anything.
@gearchruncher: Thanks for the feedback - and for your example email. Very awesome indeed.
Your points are all well taken, though I wasn't expecting to get a response. I do want to get the argument and terminology straight in my head for the next step though. Particularly against the SC line of "you already have FSD" and "you're already on the latest firmware for your configuration".
Does my draft email (which I won't now send) have it straight?
Your points are all well taken, though I wasn't expecting to get a response. I do want to get the argument and terminology straight in my head for the next step though. Particularly against the SC line of "you already have FSD" and "you're already on the latest firmware for your configuration".
Does my draft email (which I won't now send) have it straight?
They made your argument for you- "you're already on the latest firmware for your configuration" Well guess what, that latest firmware for that configuration doesn't have FSD, despite 99% of cars having it. They just literally told you that you don't have the HW needed for FSD, despite the car being advertised as having all HW needed, denied a free upgrade, and even quoted a cost for you! Slam dunk. Everything you need to sue.
Do you have this in writing from the service center so you can show it to the court?
What do they mean by "you already have FSD"? Do you actually have it? Does the AP screen in the MCU give you the option to enable some sort of FSD? If not, who cares what the SC says?
If you do and your argument is that you aren't getting updates quickly enough, that's trickier, but then you argue that you clearly don't actually have the HW needed if they have updated every other car 15 times and 3 major, public FSD versions while you got nothing.
Remember, one of two things will happen here:
1) Tesla will not show up in court. In that case, you have a minimal burden of proof. Show the Judge the ad that says your car has all HW needed, then the SC email saying you have the latest SW for "your config" then show them the public firmware trackers and how far behind you are newer hardware versions, and tell them that you tried to work with Tesla and they didn't have a timeline for any updates and/or didn't respond. Tesla won't be there to offer a different story, so you win.
2) Tesla shows up in court, and you get to ask them why your software is so far behind other cars, and when they say "latest for your config" you ask "do you mean that I do not have the latest FSD because my hardware is too old to run the latest builds?" If they say you will eventually get it, ask for a timeframe. I bet the judge doesn't like the answer of "we don't know." Also, don't forget that pre-2019 MCU1 cars were offered FULL L4 driving, so that is what you are owed, so you can ask about the timeframe for that on your current hardware config.
In the end, you're taking this a bit too seriously around perfect, precise language. Small claims is low key. Tesla isn't even likely to show.
If you do and your argument is that you aren't getting updates quickly enough, that's trickier, but then you argue that you clearly don't actually have the HW needed if they have updated every other car 15 times and 3 major, public FSD versions while you got nothing.
Remember, one of two things will happen here:
1) Tesla will not show up in court. In that case, you have a minimal burden of proof. Show the Judge the ad that says your car has all HW needed, then the SC email saying you have the latest SW for "your config" then show them the public firmware trackers and how far behind you are newer hardware versions, and tell them that you tried to work with Tesla and they didn't have a timeline for any updates and/or didn't respond. Tesla won't be there to offer a different story, so you win.
2) Tesla shows up in court, and you get to ask them why your software is so far behind other cars, and when they say "latest for your config" you ask "do you mean that I do not have the latest FSD because my hardware is too old to run the latest builds?" If they say you will eventually get it, ask for a timeframe. I bet the judge doesn't like the answer of "we don't know." Also, don't forget that pre-2019 MCU1 cars were offered FULL L4 driving, so that is what you are owed, so you can ask about the timeframe for that on your current hardware config.
In the end, you're taking this a bit too seriously around perfect, precise language. Small claims is low key. Tesla isn't even likely to show.
That's really helpful - thank you.
What the heck is FSD any more? This is the confusion that Tesla have created.
I have whatever we considered FSD prior to the 2022 release of FSD beta / autosteer on city streets.
The Autopilot screen has a "Request Full Self-Driving Beta" button which was pressed 18-24 months ago. There's a note next to it saying "You are enrolled into Full Self-Driving Beta queue". Then there are toggles for "Autosteer (Beta)", "Navigate on Autopilot (Beta)", "Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta)", and "Summon (Beta)".
It's build 2022.8.10.16. The car reports it at v11.0. For what it's worth, TeslaFi version tracker doesn't consider it FSD - there's no little red FSD version number badge next to it.
What the heck is FSD any more? This is the confusion that Tesla have created.
I have whatever we considered FSD prior to the 2022 release of FSD beta / autosteer on city streets.
The Autopilot screen has a "Request Full Self-Driving Beta" button which was pressed 18-24 months ago. There's a note next to it saying "You are enrolled into Full Self-Driving Beta queue". Then there are toggles for "Autosteer (Beta)", "Navigate on Autopilot (Beta)", "Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta)", and "Summon (Beta)".
It's build 2022.8.10.16. The car reports it at v11.0. For what it's worth, TeslaFi version tracker doesn't consider it FSD - there's no little red FSD version number badge next to it.
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Yeah, that's not FSD. Go look up images/videos of actual FSD options in those menus. Bring those to court and just honestly tell the Judge that you don't have FSD, that's not a lie. You don't have to report what the SC told you, that's just one random person on earth and the factual evidence of looking at your car outweighs that.
Interesting - I see what you mean.
THANK YOU so much @gearchruncher - both for starting this thread AND continuing to support it.
Resolutions email sent. I'll keep you posted on what happens next.
THANK YOU so much @gearchruncher - both for starting this thread AND continuing to support it.
Resolutions email sent. I'll keep you posted on what happens next.
seenhear
Member
@Vagus - You've received great guidance from gearcruncher.
I just thought I'd add what worked for me (and admittedly I may have gotten lucky).
The line of inquiry I pursued was to state I wanted to schedule upgrades required for FSD-Beta. Once upgrades were scheduled, and the cost was quoted, rather than approving the estimate, I requested the costs be waived since my car was sold as FSD-capable. They investigated, escalated, there were a few back and forths over several weeks. I kept rescheduling the appointment until I got resolution. More details HERE
FYI for anyone looking at suing Tesla, they conveniently have a "how to serve us" page that makes finding their registered agent easy:
(choose "process of service")
(choose "process of service")
seenhear
Member
Update from my end, I recently won my small claims vs Tesla over my failed control arm in my front end suspension. My car was under warranty though, not sure how much luck folks will have outside of warranty as that is what clinched the judge in my favor. I've never had to sue anybody before, so going through the whole process was kind of stressful. The above advise on identifying the registered agent and serving them in time was probably the most difficult part of the whole equation, I didn't have the above details when I went forward with my case, but it all worked out in the end.
seenhear
Member
I'm really curious why Tesla would not repair a failed control arm for a vehicle that was under warranty? Were they claiming it was somehow your fault or something? I can't fathom what other logic they could apply to deny you warranty work.
pelargir
Member
@gearchruncher who should I name as defendant in my case? Would that be the registered agent in my state, which is CT Corporation Systems, or would it be the local service center?
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The defendant is just Tesla, INC, or whatever they are named with the secretary of state in NC.
You serve Tesla INC at their registered agent in your state.
pelargir
Member
@gearchruncher thank you. And thank you for your original post. This is very helpful information.
I'm in a somewhat different situation in that I bought my MS in 2017 and opted not to pay for FSD at the time (although we did buy EAP which was $5k). I later bought FSD capability in 2020 for $3k. My local SC installed the HW3 upgrade for free the following month. I spent the next 3 years waiting for the FSD firmware to become available for MCU1 cars. It finally downloaded late last year. I used it for a few months before I had to take my car to the SC for an unrelated issue. When I got my car back, the firmware had been updated and FSD was gone.
I've since scheduled 3 different appts trying to get Tesla to restore the FSD firmware. The first 2 times they simply told me over chat that the SC could not push the firmware down to my vehicle and that I would have to keep waiting. The most recent time they actually had me bring my vehicle to the SC and they updated the navigation firmware, but still told me they could not push FSD to the car and that I had to keep waiting. No ETA provided.
After getting my car back, I scheduled another appt with them requesting "whatever hardware is necessary for me to get FSD." They responded saying I already had HW3 so I already had the hardware necessary. I asked why I wasn't getting the FSD firmware like everyone else who has purchased FSD capability, and they said it was because I was on MCU1. They quoted $2k to upgrade to MCU2 and said I would get the FSD firmware "within a few days" (quoting them) after upgrading.
I pressed them on when FSD will be available for MCU1 and they could not give me a date, just that "we're working on it." I asked them to waive the fee for the upgrade to MCU2, arguing that it should be included since my car won't run FSD without it. They refused (of course).
My argument is that I bought FSD capability 4 years ago and I've been waiting ever since then for the FSD firmware to be available for MCU1. It became available briefly and was then taken away again. Meanwhile, 95% of MCU2 cars on the road who paid for FSD now have. Per Elon, "all FSD capable cars" received a free trial of FSD just a few weeks ago. Tesla says if I pony up $2k for MCU2 I'll have the FSD firmware within a few days. If I don't, I have to keep waiting an indefinite period of time for it to become available for MCU1. In the meantime, I'm not getting to use a feature I paid for 4 years ago.
Do you think I have a legitimate case given their inability to provide an ETA on FSD for MCU1? Cars purchased just 6 months after ours are now able to get FSD but I'm still out in the cold. Any suggestions on better ways I might present this case? Thanks in advance.
I'm in a somewhat different situation in that I bought my MS in 2017 and opted not to pay for FSD at the time (although we did buy EAP which was $5k). I later bought FSD capability in 2020 for $3k. My local SC installed the HW3 upgrade for free the following month. I spent the next 3 years waiting for the FSD firmware to become available for MCU1 cars. It finally downloaded late last year. I used it for a few months before I had to take my car to the SC for an unrelated issue. When I got my car back, the firmware had been updated and FSD was gone.
I've since scheduled 3 different appts trying to get Tesla to restore the FSD firmware. The first 2 times they simply told me over chat that the SC could not push the firmware down to my vehicle and that I would have to keep waiting. The most recent time they actually had me bring my vehicle to the SC and they updated the navigation firmware, but still told me they could not push FSD to the car and that I had to keep waiting. No ETA provided.
After getting my car back, I scheduled another appt with them requesting "whatever hardware is necessary for me to get FSD." They responded saying I already had HW3 so I already had the hardware necessary. I asked why I wasn't getting the FSD firmware like everyone else who has purchased FSD capability, and they said it was because I was on MCU1. They quoted $2k to upgrade to MCU2 and said I would get the FSD firmware "within a few days" (quoting them) after upgrading.
I pressed them on when FSD will be available for MCU1 and they could not give me a date, just that "we're working on it." I asked them to waive the fee for the upgrade to MCU2, arguing that it should be included since my car won't run FSD without it. They refused (of course).
My argument is that I bought FSD capability 4 years ago and I've been waiting ever since then for the FSD firmware to be available for MCU1. It became available briefly and was then taken away again. Meanwhile, 95% of MCU2 cars on the road who paid for FSD now have. Per Elon, "all FSD capable cars" received a free trial of FSD just a few weeks ago. Tesla says if I pony up $2k for MCU2 I'll have the FSD firmware within a few days. If I don't, I have to keep waiting an indefinite period of time for it to become available for MCU1. In the meantime, I'm not getting to use a feature I paid for 4 years ago.
Do you think I have a legitimate case given their inability to provide an ETA on FSD for MCU1? Cars purchased just 6 months after ours are now able to get FSD but I'm still out in the cold. Any suggestions on better ways I might present this case? Thanks in advance.
seenhear
Member
Absolutely you have a case for small claims court. Anyone with a 2017 MCU1 car has a case, even if they didn't buy FSD, because they may want to subscribe to FSD (which was my case). But you actually have PAID for FSD.
I would make an appointment for the MCU2 upgrade. In your appointment request, specify you want it so you can run FSD-Supervised (note it's no longer considered "beta").
Once the quote comes for your approval, again request them to waive the cost since your car was sold to you with the promise that it included "all the necessary hardware for full self driving" which is obviously not true.
It may help to include screenshots of these claims/advertising from the Tesla website in the month or 2 ahead of when you bought the car. These can be found on the internet archive (aka "wayback machine").
When they refuse to comp you the upgrade, file for small claims per the OP instructions of this thread.
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