How would you prefer to pay for Supercharging?

[Booga]

If Tesla is going to charge per kWh, I believe they will not charge more than their cost per mile in their "Charging Estimator". Therefore we can get a close estimate for a 50 kWh charge by looking at their new 100 kWh battery that goes 315 miles. If you plug 155 miles into their "Charging Estimator", they show a cost of $6.22. Therefore, an estimated cost for a 50 kWh charge would be around $6 or $.12 per kWh.

Another way to do the calculation is plug in the 215 estimate miles for the Model 3 into their "Charging Estimator" for a cost of $8.63.

I believe Tesla's current "Charging Estimator" does not take into account that the new model 3 will have a more efficient battery with more miles per kWh charge.

Generally, I agree that they won't want to charge too much to discourage use, but I could see them having to build in some kind of premium because they pay commercial rates, which are more routinely subject to time of use pricing and larger peak charges. 150 amps turning off and on in an instant is not easy for the electric company to provide at 2pm on a hot day and so while they will have batteries at popular locations to smooth out the grid draw from, I really wouldn't be surprised for it to be higher than residential pricing. In addition, we have to pay for the hardware and land, just like any gas station factors these into their costs.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised for the cost to be closer to 20-24 cents per kWh assuming a 12 cent input cost considering national averages.

 

[Pando]

because they pay commercial rates

It's possible, but unlikely. Not only can they negotiate better rates from the energy company, but they could offset their cost from Solar they can put back into the grid somewhere else.

 

[AZGirl]

We do plan on using the Model 3 for trips during the year so would be using the SC network. Were strongly leaning towords purchasing a "SC for life" option if available during configuration depending on the one time price. Given today's revelations about a possible pre purchase SC credits scheme I wonder if there will even be a SC for life option. Also wondering if Feds and states will be taxing the purchase credits as a way to generate funds for road maintenance, etc. to compensate the loss in gasloline tax revenue. I hope the overall cost per mile works out to be considerably less than current gas prices.

 

[Fred Thompson]

Generally, I agree that they won't want to charge too much to discourage use, but I could see them having to build in some kind of premium because they pay commercial rates, which are more routinely subject to time of use pricing and larger peak charges. 150 amps turning off and on in an instant is not easy for the electric company to provide at 2pm on a hot day and so while they will have batteries at popular locations to smooth out the grid draw from, I really wouldn't be surprised for it to be higher than residential pricing. In addition, we have to pay for the hardware and land, just like any gas station factors these into their costs.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised for the cost to be closer to 20-24 cents per kWh assuming a 12 cent input cost considering national averages.

Tesla should be able to set the cost based on their cost for electricity and offset the cost of delivering the service in other ways like solar stations.

A more important issue is how will Tesla account for the varying cost of electricity from different states and countries. I am guessing Tesla will set your cost for a kWh based on where you live. The following link shows the retail cost of electricity by state.

www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/10/27/141766341/the-price-of-electricity-in-your-state

 

[Red Sage]

Yes, I agree with the above.



No, that's where you are wrong. What we have now is UNLIMITED supercharging for a flat fee (bundled into the price of the car). What is being discussed is METERED supercharger use. You prepay an amount that entitles you to a LIMITED amount of supercharging. That's a big difference.

Read my sentences again, and you may find that is what I said. You are applying part of my statement to describe another part of my post when I have already identified what those words were meant to modify, describe, and refer to. I'll try again...

Tesla Motors has always accepted prepayment for Supercharger access. They will continue to do so. The same as before.

Howzat?

 

[Red Sage]

One neat thing about TMC is that once you post something, we can refer back to it later. I really don't want to pick on you here, but you've been pretty vocal in the past about this, and finding evidence of your position isn't terribly difficult. Just a few of the first results using the search icon at the top right:

Maybe what you're trying to say is that this isn't what you've been saying all along, but you're happy with the outcome?

What I'm happy about is that this is NOT pay-per-use. It is prepaid. A poo-poo-4-you system would suck.

 

[Pando]

Re

What I'm happy about is that this is NOT pay-per-use. It is prepaid. A poo-poo-4-you system would suck.

It is prepaid pay-per-use.

 

[Red Sage]

It is prepaid pay-per-use.

Leave Patrick alone! It is prepaid... use.

 

[Alketi]

What I'm happy about is that this is NOT pay-per-use. It is prepaid. A poo-poo-4-you system would suck.

I have a Dunkin Donuts card. I put money on it and, when I buy a coffee, it deducts that money.

Is that pay-per-use or prepaid or both or neither? And, are you happy about that?

As an aside, I did a quick survey and 942 of your 1800+ posts (possibly not accurate numbers) were about this topic, with you mostly trying to overpower other members with a different opinion. Did you at least promise to eat your shoe or something?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Read my sentences again, and you may find that is what I said. You are applying part of my statement to describe another part of my post when I have already identified what those words were meant to modify, describe, and refer to. I'll try again...

Tesla Motors has always accepted prepayment for Supercharger access. They will continue to do so. The same as before.

Howzat?

Whether it is prepaid or post-paid, it is still pay-per-use (metered by kWh). Your long term claim was that it won't be pay per use (AKA it won't be metered at all). The recent news clear suggests that it is pay per use. Is it that hard to admit you were wrong with your prediction?

 

[Canuck]

Tesla Motors has always accepted prepayment for Supercharger access. They will continue to do so. The same as before. Howzat?

Damn, I was wishing I could run up a tab, and that Tesla would also front me some cash.

 

[Pando]

Tesla Motors has always accepted prepayment for Supercharger access. They will continue to do so. The same as before.
Howzat?

Yes, but looks like they will also be offering Pay-Per-Use, even if it's prepaid in small increments. Are you arguing about semantics?

 

[J1mbo]

Since superchargers are supposed to be networked, I wonder if, in the future, they could add a sensor to see if a car is parked in a given spot and allow users to see real time stats before even making the journey to the supercharger.

More likely they will use the car's network for this info. No new sensors needed!

Kinda confusing to see "kWh" in this leak. Does anyone know how many kWh they have supercharged with over the last month? I don't, but I am guessing it was several hundred. But some months, I never supercharge. Not sure I would want to prepay a big chunk of cash on the off chance I might need to supercharge.

This topic raises some interesting questions... Supercharging ability is currently controlled by a setting in the car, not by the charger. Will the car have to request charging from the mothership before it starts? What if there is no 3G/LTE access? Will the car know how much credit you have? Will a charge session be terminated as soon as you run out of credit? Can see that being annoying.

IMO, for PAYG, it would make more sense to use MyTesla just to store default CC details and have a payment confirmation screen in the car at the time of charging to allow new details to be entered.

 

[Fred Thompson]

Let me know if my calculations are off? I thought it would be interested to look at the fuel cost comparison between Tesla's 100 kWh battery and a Prius that gets 50 miles to a gallon. As you can see, in Hawaii, it may not make sense to purchase a Tesla Model 3 (M3) unless Tesla allows you to charge at one of their superstations and charges the average cost of 12 cents per kWh. It also does not make sense to purchase the flat rate charge for a M3 in Hawaii because you don't travel that far on the island. In California, you only save 1/2 cent a mile when you compare the Tesla to a Prius when charging at home. Savings will increase base on the increased cost of gas and when driving a vehicle that gets less the 50 miles to a gallon.

 

[Booga]

It's possible, but unlikely. Not only can they negotiate better rates from the energy company, but they could offset their cost from Solar they can put back into the grid somewhere else.

If they can offset it from solar? You realize deploying solar increases the assets they need, and so yes, on an income statement basis, it would be "offset." But when you consider the required returns they will need to meet considering their balance sheet, it's not going to be impacted by how many solar panels they have. If it was that simple, gas stations would have lots of solar panels and be selling gas cheaper - just because it's electricity doesn't introduce new financial economics to the world.

Tesla may choose to purposely sell electricity below cost, but that can't go on forever, unless the cars come with a larger margin to compensate for it.

My own opinion is that their entire offering is going to be compelling enough with the Model 3 that selling supercharger access below cost isn't going to be necessary. I would rather them charge a sustainable rate that allows them to expand the charging network and keep the equipment in good condition instead of seeing it internally as only a "cost center." If it brings in revenue, it's a lot easier to justify future upgrades and expansions.

I'm expecting them to price it with a 50% margin and likely no special pricing based on location - maybe just one flat rate across the country for simplicity. Hawaii could be an exception where maybe they charged 1.5 "credits per hour" or something similar, but I expect those to be the exception.

Because I only intend on using supercharging when I'm traveling, I would have no issue effectively paying 25 cents/kwh.

 

[cronosx]

View attachment 192241

Let me know if my calculations are off? I thought it would be interested to look at the fuel cost comparison between Tesla's 100 kWh battery and a Prius that gets 50 miles to a gallon. As you can see, in Hawaii, it may not make sense to purchase a Tesla Model 3 (M3) unless Tesla allows you to charge at one of their superstations and charges the average cost of 12 cents per kWh. It also does not make sense to purchase the flat rate charge for a M3 in Hawaii because you don't travel that far on the island. In California, you only save 1/2 cent a mile when you compare the Tesla to a Prius when charging at home. Savings will increase base on the increased cost of gas and when driving a vehicle that gets less the 50 miles to a gallon.

Yes.. but we don't really want to drive a prius, and the prius can obtain the 50 miles to gallon only if you drive like an old lady while the tesla do this simply by driving like a normal person, so be realistic, let's assume we drive like normal people and you'll see that it's not the same anymore.
And of course, at home you can have solar panel, but you can't dug a pit and expect gas to come out, so again.. take calculation with a grain of salt

 

[JeffK]

More likely they will use the car's network for this info. No new sensors needed!

This topic raises some interesting questions... Supercharging ability is currently controlled by a setting in the car, not by the charger. Will the car have to request charging from the mothership before it starts? What if there is no 3G/LTE access? Will the car know how much credit you have? Will a charge session be terminated as soon as you run out of credit? Can see that being annoying.

The car's network will not know if a Honda is parked in a supercharger spot...

I'm also interested to see if the car has to call home before supercharging... would it work if there was no network access?
What if I was to bring a cell/wifi jammer, can I charge for free or not at all?
What happens in a time of emergency/disaster if cell/wifi networks are unreachable? Can't leave the disaster zone?

Perhaps the car will actually be sent the number of credits and do the accounting onboard... therefore there'd be no need to call home unless it needs to send the usage back to Tesla later to keep the numbers in sync. With this method, it'd be much more difficult to fool it.

 

[J1mbo]

The car's network will not know if a Honda is parked in a supercharger spot...

I'm also interested to see if the car has to call home before supercharging... would it work if there was no network access?
What if I was to bring a cell/wifi jammer, can I charge for free or not at all?
What happens in a time of emergency/disaster if cell/wifi networks are unreachable? Can't leave the disaster zone?

Perhaps the car will actually be sent the number of credits and do the accounting onboard... therefore there'd be no need to call home unless it needs to send the usage back to Tesla later to keep the numbers in sync. With this method, it'd be much more difficult to fool it.

Exactly. I think it ultimately depends on how much Tesla really cares about protecting the revenue stream. Any system that stores credit or access rights in the car is going to be weaker than a system that manages it remotely. IMO the car is unlikely to be secure enough to stop determined hackers from giving themselves unlimited credits, and trying to keep one step ahead will be expensive.

 

[JeffK]

IMO the car is unlikely to be secure enough to stop determined hackers from giving themselves unlimited credits, and trying to keep one step ahead will be expensive.

No reason you can't have it stored as an encrypted token. You can't really break it so you'd have to work around it. It might be more trouble than it's worth for the majority of people potentially bricking your car...

 

[stopcrazypp]

No reason you can't have it stored as an encrypted token. You can't really break it so you'd have to work around it. It might be more trouble than it's worth for the majority of people potentially bricking your car...

That's exactly how I think they will implement it. That will allow for offline usage. That's how most rfid bus passes work. A system that requires constant network connection would be unreliable given some stations will be in areas of poor connectivity.