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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
Waitaminute! So the 25/26 stations are not logically and evenly distributed up and down the state for a cross counrty trip to Vancouver?
How do they refill in 10 minutes without a station to fuel in?
So the guy (Terry Tamminen) says
Is carrying all his fuel and a pumping station in a trailer. So if he were to drive 230 miles from Oxnard the most Northerly LA station (Plug in zip code here)
he would have to turn around and go back to Oxnard (in 115 miles) while the Tesla filled up at an RV park in Kettleman. It could take a thousand hours to fill up. That Hydrogen car will never get anywhere without a place to fill. Tesla wins.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
They are moderating/screening. It took quite a while before my post showed up.
When I wrote something up there were 0 replies showing, so when they finally let them through it turned out multiple of us had already said similar things not realizing it.
Vehicles hit highway, powered by hydrogen
Hydrogen Road Tour pauses in W. Sacramento to make case for fuel-cell vehicles - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee
I am posting another comment to Newamerica pointing out the extra fuel they are using to drive the mobile fueling station behind the test cars, and the fact that the tour is 9 days, not 24 hours.
I thought when the fed government "pulled the plug" on hydrogen funding that it was "game over" for hydrogen, but instead it looks like it just "rallied the troops".
Hydrogen Road Tour pauses in W. Sacramento to make case for fuel-cell vehicles - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee
(note, Blencoe posts a comment there)
Hydrogen Road Tour pauses in W. Sacramento to make case for fuel-cell vehicles - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee
I am posting another comment to Newamerica pointing out the extra fuel they are using to drive the mobile fueling station behind the test cars, and the fact that the tour is 9 days, not 24 hours.
I thought when the fed government "pulled the plug" on hydrogen funding that it was "game over" for hydrogen, but instead it looks like it just "rallied the troops".
Hydrogen Road Tour: How can H2 cars can go 1,700 miles? Use a tanker truck
ABG misses the point that there is probably an Air Products 40ft semi attached to it too...
ABG misses the point that there is probably an Air Products 40ft semi attached to it too...
johnr
Member
I was over in Fresno when the H2 road tour passed through, they had stopped there for an hour to show off the cars and answer questions. Of course, the "mobile refueling station" was completely out of sight. For the sake of anyone who's not clear on this, hydrogen cars are simply electric cars that use hydrogen instead of batteries, and are refueled by hydrogen instead of plugging in directly.
The disadvantage to hydrogen vehicles is you can't recharge them at home. The advantage is people could potentially refuel them in pretty much the same way as they're used to, at a conventional "gas" station, and potentially just as quickly as pumping gas. A battery powered vehicle, on the other hand, takes longer to "refuel", and the battery capacity gradually deteriorates.
A hydrogen economy would preserve the status quo ... and this could be a good thing and a bad thing. Is there room for development of both hydrogen cars and battery powered cars? I don't think so. There is just so much investment required to bring either technology to mass-market, and I'm not sure we can afford to do both. We should tighten our focus on the best technology and stick with it. Of course I believe the better technology is battery power - it's a more efficient energy storage medium, it's less costly, you can recover more energy from regenerative braking, and you can plug in virtually anywhere including at home.
The disadvantage to hydrogen vehicles is you can't recharge them at home. The advantage is people could potentially refuel them in pretty much the same way as they're used to, at a conventional "gas" station, and potentially just as quickly as pumping gas. A battery powered vehicle, on the other hand, takes longer to "refuel", and the battery capacity gradually deteriorates.
A hydrogen economy would preserve the status quo ... and this could be a good thing and a bad thing. Is there room for development of both hydrogen cars and battery powered cars? I don't think so. There is just so much investment required to bring either technology to mass-market, and I'm not sure we can afford to do both. We should tighten our focus on the best technology and stick with it. Of course I believe the better technology is battery power - it's a more efficient energy storage medium, it's less costly, you can recover more energy from regenerative braking, and you can plug in virtually anywhere including at home.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
You should also consider that batteries can be recharged quickly with the right charger, and the right battery chemistry. Altairnano and A123 can be recharged in minutes, especially if you don't recharge above 80% or so. Other lithium chemistries can do pretty well. I don't consider recharge time to be a real problem.
Batteries may degrade over time, but what about fuel cells and their membranes?
Batteries may degrade over time, but what about fuel cells and their membranes?
Well it's worth pointing out again that there is so much more investment required for HFCVs to be practical. We could "do both" and let the market decide. Just a long as it's not my tax dollars paying for that experiment.
I'll add that, while they're criticized by Elon as being "neither fish now foul," PHEVs (such as Volt) offer a reasonable bridge technology to pure BEVs. PHEVs use existing infrastructure, i.e. home charging and ubiquitous gas stations, while allowing established automakers to leverage their ICE know-how. As more (relatively low cost) public charging stations go online, the utility of PHEVs is increased. This is without any advancement in technology. Over time, as batteries get better and cheaper, consumers get used to plugging in, and/or more public charging stations become available, the "need" for an ICE range extender diminishes.
I can think of no analogous bridge technology for HFCVs. It is a very expensive chicken and egg problem that benefits no one but the oil companies and folks like Greg Blenco.
--------------
HFCV = hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
BEV = battery electric vehicle
PHEV = plug-in hybrid electric vehicle [Here I mean the type that's also sometimes called a range-extended or extended-range electric vehicle (REEV or EREV).]
ICE = internal combustion engine
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
And from what I hear, it can be hard on the batteries, and isn't the most efficient way to charge them. Maybe for ultracaps someday, but I still think the right way to go is just 240V charge connectors everywhere... Your car tends to be parked ~somewhere~ enough of the day that you can keep it charged. If there is a charge cable at home, at work, at the mall, at the movies, at the rest stop, at the restaurant, at the campground, just leaving on charge when not in motion should take care of things.
Just how much effort do we need to put in solve the "marathon drive problem"? Rent a hybrid car for the occasional 500+ mile a day trip.
From The Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Letter
Seven National Groups Urge Congress to Restore H2 & Fuel Cell Funding for 2010
WASHINGTON, DC June 9 - Seven national organizations that address health, environmental and energy policy concerns today sent joint letters to leaders of the House and Senate energy and water appropriations subcommittees calling for restoration of the federal hydrogen and fuel cell program.
“Fuel cells are essential to achieving national goals for energy security, sustainability and global competitiveness,” the organizations, which included four trade associations, said in their letters. The seven are the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers (AAM), American Lung Association (ALA), Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA), Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), The Stella Group, Ltd, the National Hydrogen Association (NHA) and the U.S. Fuel Cell Council (USFCC).
The Obama Administration’s 2010 Department of Energy (DOE) budget proposes to cut the federal hydrogen fuel cell research and deployment budget by more than two thirds, or $130 million, eliminating funds for the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle program and market transformation programs (H&FCL June 09).
Identical letters were sent to Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), chairman of the Senate Energy and Water Appropriations Subcommittee and Ranking Minority Member Sen. Robert Bennett (R-UT), and on the House side, to Rep. Peter Visclosky (D-IN) chairman of the House Energy and Water Appropriations Subcommittee and to Ranking Member Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-NJ).
“Attaining our national goal of sustainable transportation will require a diverse portfolio of advanced vehicles. Fuel cell vehicles should be part of our portfolio,” the letters said. “Industry, academic researchers, and the Department of Energy, working together, have achieved substantial success in addressing technology, infrastructure and cost challenges. Real world data collected by DOE and others confirms that fuel cell vehicles are inherently low in smog-causing emissions, cut carbon emissions by more than half and achieve nearly 60% efficiency, which is two to three times the fuel economy of comparable combustion vehicles.
“We need to maintain momentum in the hydrogen fuel cell pathway. We urge you to maintain U.S. leadership in developing and deploying fuel cell transportation by restoring fuel cell funding to FY 2009 levels,” they wrote.
Contacts: U.S. Fuel Cell Council, Brynne Ward, (202) 293-5500, x 33, [email protected], www.usfcc.com; Electric Drive Transportation Association, Jennifer Watts, (202) 408-0774, x 306, [email protected]; Scott Sklar, President, The Stella Group, Ltd. (703) 522-1195 or [email protected].
Seven National Groups Urge Congress to Restore H2 & Fuel Cell Funding for 2010
WASHINGTON, DC June 9 - Seven national organizations that address health, environmental and energy policy concerns today sent joint letters to leaders of the House and Senate energy and water appropriations subcommittees calling for restoration of the federal hydrogen and fuel cell program.
“Fuel cells are essential to achieving national goals for energy security, sustainability and global competitiveness,” the organizations, which included four trade associations, said in their letters. The seven are the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers (AAM), American Lung Association (ALA), Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA), Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), The Stella Group, Ltd, the National Hydrogen Association (NHA) and the U.S. Fuel Cell Council (USFCC).
The Obama Administration’s 2010 Department of Energy (DOE) budget proposes to cut the federal hydrogen fuel cell research and deployment budget by more than two thirds, or $130 million, eliminating funds for the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle program and market transformation programs (H&FCL June 09).
Identical letters were sent to Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), chairman of the Senate Energy and Water Appropriations Subcommittee and Ranking Minority Member Sen. Robert Bennett (R-UT), and on the House side, to Rep. Peter Visclosky (D-IN) chairman of the House Energy and Water Appropriations Subcommittee and to Ranking Member Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-NJ).
“Attaining our national goal of sustainable transportation will require a diverse portfolio of advanced vehicles. Fuel cell vehicles should be part of our portfolio,” the letters said. “Industry, academic researchers, and the Department of Energy, working together, have achieved substantial success in addressing technology, infrastructure and cost challenges. Real world data collected by DOE and others confirms that fuel cell vehicles are inherently low in smog-causing emissions, cut carbon emissions by more than half and achieve nearly 60% efficiency, which is two to three times the fuel economy of comparable combustion vehicles.
“We need to maintain momentum in the hydrogen fuel cell pathway. We urge you to maintain U.S. leadership in developing and deploying fuel cell transportation by restoring fuel cell funding to FY 2009 levels,” they wrote.
Contacts: U.S. Fuel Cell Council, Brynne Ward, (202) 293-5500, x 33, [email protected], www.usfcc.com; Electric Drive Transportation Association, Jennifer Watts, (202) 408-0774, x 306, [email protected]; Scott Sklar, President, The Stella Group, Ltd. (703) 522-1195 or [email protected].
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