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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
??? How so ? It's a slightly larger battery, a charger and a plug. There are plenty of PHEVs out there and this would have been at least an order of magnitude easier since a FCV is already an EV.
Merrill
Merrill
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
In HFCEV vs BEV debates, many of the benefits of hydrogen seem to be somewhere in the future: hypothetical, and predicated on the latest R&D. Even when UCS goes out of its way to be tactful about HFCEV, most of the benefits still sound like jam tomorrow.
Meanwhile BEV and its benefits are here today, and practical today. Attesting to this are over a million owners and growing.
Meanwhile BEV and its benefits are here today, and practical today. Attesting to this are over a million owners and growing.
The closest to us would be Mill Valley. I haven't seen our local Mirai (the badged one) in months, have you? I used to see it daily.
Merrill
Merrill
No I have not seen it. I still do not get why anyone would want a fuel cell vehicle, maybe larger commercial vehicles.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I think there are two types of FCV drivers. Those that don't understand thermodynamics and.... ok... probably just one type of FCV driver.
Curious George
Member
I have no idea how you are coming up with these. Yo are assuming someone willgo to the station just to fill up.
If the station is on route to where they go (commute route), then detour is much less. the usual wait times is similar to a supercharegr session with no wait.
Many station only operate till 10 p.m. Check the station status. the San Jose station is located at intersection of two freeways, so most people can fill up there without much detour.
i heard that since Iwatani, the Japanese company, took over Linde stations , they are doing a good job managing the crisis. It's almost liek full service H2 fill ups.
Your question is already answered in the diagram I posted. Establishing the market. Good FCEVs won't just drop from the sky when cheap hydrogen appears. It's a slow innovation process.
Plus, FCEVs are fighting the FUD from #H2Q gang, with Elon Musk as the H2Q gang leader.
Imagine 10 years from now. Team H2Q tries to find pictures of hydrogen cars exploding. Today they can get some traction with the FUD.
If FCEVs work out ok, 10 year later, they will be laughed at when they bring up such same FUD.
The car makers are also testing out the tech and refining the cars, as you see in the progress they are making. Getting ready for the future.
If you don't understand the value of these steps, it's fine.
So let me clarify my stance so some of you don't try to convince me of things that I already agree with.
1. FCEV owners are unhappy with fuel shortage. I agree. Who will be happy with this?
2. FCEV owners are unhappy with their cars and won't even take them for free with free fuel.
- Strongly disagree. Just see the facebook pages.
3. Plug-in FCEVs will solve some of the fuel related issues.
- Agree. But the tech is more complex. it may be the path that gets chosen. The flexibility is there.
4. No one in SF bay area (definition?) can drive their FCEVs for 3 month.
- Disagree. May be 25% of people gave up driving their cars. Rest 75% are just annoyed. Just do the math with the amount of hydrogen being dispensed from Mtn View, Campbell, San Jose, SanRamon and Palo Alto daily. You should be able to figure out the miles they are driving.
@ohmman, that forum never took off. I just checked the dates of its few posts. They are mostly couple years old..
For more active forums, check out the facebook pages. Some are closed groups, so can't get in without having a Toyota Mirai. Here is a pic from the public Mirai page, which is lot more active than the forum that was linked.
How did the author randmoly stumble upon a 2 year inactive thread, and why did he link to it?
Toyota Mirai - Owners page
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
For most people in the SF area there is no functional H2 station between where they work and live.
'Good FCVs' are not the problem. Renewable H2 supply is the problem and there are already market forces to improve H2 supply without the need to waste $$$ on FCVs.
I assume that would mean 0% are satisfied? I guess that's progress toward reality.
Plus, FCEVs are fighting the FUD from #H2Q gang, with Elon Musk as the H2Q gang leader.
I would argue that they're reinforcing it... exactly what has been countered? They're a thermodynamic nightmare with a fragile fuel supply..... yep.
Curious George
Member
They see more value of their time and like a 3-5 minute fill up than wait for 30-60 mins at super chargers on road trips?
They don't want to pay $100k for a 360-380 mile range zero emission vehicle?
They believe in this technology and want to be part of the revolution and support the cause?
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nwdiver
Well-Known Member
They see more value of their time and like a 3-5 minute fill up than wait for 30-60 mins at super chargers on road trips?
???? Exactly what kind of 'road trip' can you take in a Mirai? Most people are going to be spending a lot more time going out of their way to get fuel as opposed to just charging up at home if they had a BEV.
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
Here in San Mateo County I used to see one parked in the same place daily, and another one about once a week. Both seem to have disappeared.
BEVs are everywhere, of course: dozens of Model 3, and more every day; smaller numbers of S and X; i3, Bolt, etc.
First result in a Google search for “Toyota Mirai forum” is that forum. That’s how.
I guess he’d check out a more active forum but as you say, most are closed. Curious why they’d be closed...
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Curious why they’d be closed...
Driving an hour round trip to get fuel probably eats a lot into discretionary time to browse internet forums...
Curious George
Member
Lots of people doing LA-SF Bay area or LA-Sacramento, even during these shortage! The Coalinga connector uptime is almost 100%.
@ohmmanm ok , that's possible.
The page I linked above is open though.
The other one is owned by Toyota. Guess they want to keep the noise out and stop the press from picking up the bad news and spread more FUD.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
In which case a Tesla would STILL yield less fueling time.
- Leave home with full charge.
- Stop for lunch at Harris Ranch and charge while eating
- Charge at destination.
- Return home
Time devoted solely to fueling = 0
VS
- Detour to get fuel (20 minutes)
- Stop to eat lunch
- Detour to get fuel (20 minutes)
- Return home
Time devoted solely to fueling = 40 minutes
Curious George
Member
OOPS! Hydrogen crisis. Unhappy customers who can't get rid of their cars anyhow!
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Some more thoughts on efficiency. That local Mirai that I was talking about earlier (the one that appears to be gone) - to fuel up, they have to drive to Mill Valley. That's a 73 mile roundtrip from where I believe the owner lives. Granted, they may work near that area, or perhaps in San Francisco, so they'd be able to combine trips. But either way, this eats into whatever efficiency level the car might achieve. Meanwhile, both my Model S and X are charged at home, in my garage, and offset by the PV on my roof. It's no wonder I don't see it anymore. I wonder if they got a Tesla.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
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