Hydrogen vs. Battery

[FactsBot]

This discussion about Japan seems to be a red herring, to distract from H2's failure in the marketplace — and to drive engagement with misinformation.

It's tempting to think that certain users are paid to make that happen. Amateurs usually aren't quite so enthusiastically and creatively obtuse.

Getting back to the facts: BEV is burying HFCEV in the passenger vehicle market. BEV is affordable, efficient, and green — right now, whereas HFCEV is pie in the sky. Plus BEV will benefit as the grid continues to get cleaner and battery technologies continue to improve. On past form that means BEV will stay well ahead of HFCEV.

I understand that you don't have time paying attention here because of being busy with the funny button, but it is relevant. Japanese government might be the motivator of all the Toyota, Honda, Nissan FCEVs. And if they succeed and prices come down, other countries might copy them.

 

[FactsBot]

Um.... no..... CH4 sourced H2 solves literally nothing over just CH4........ because....... math.

Can you please read the links before you reply?

how does hydropower or geothermal equal to CH4?

this is the second time I inserted this link

• Extraction of hydrogen by gasification of Australian brown coal.
• Production of hydrogen by electrolysis based on New Zealand geothermal power.
• Production of hydrogen by electrolysis based on Norwegian hydropower.
• Production of hydrogen by steam reforming based on Bruneian natural gas.
• Supply chain of ammonia (as an energy carrier) with Saudi Arabia.

 

[FutureShock]

This discussion about Japan seems to be a red herring, to distract from H2's failure in the marketplace — and to drive engagement with misinformation.

It's tempting to think that certain users are paid to make that happen. Amateurs usually aren't quite so enthusiastically and creatively obtuse.

Getting back to the facts: BEV is burying HFCEV in the passenger vehicle market. BEV is affordable, efficient, and green — right now, whereas HFCEV is pie in the sky.

Plus BEV will benefit as the grid continues to get cleaner and battery technologies continue to improve. On past form that means BEV will stay well ahead of HFCEV.

Very well said.
.

 

[nwdiver]

Can you please read the links before you reply?

how does hydropower or geothermal equal to CH4?

For the 11th time; As long as there's industrial demand for H2 it makes no sense to use H2 as an energy carrier REGARDLESS of how it's produced. If you've just produced 100kg of H2 you can ship it to displace 130kg of CH4. H2 is H2.

It's a global economy. As long as H2 is being produced on an industrial scale from fools fuel the only rational use of any H2 that's produced from a clean source is to displace H2 that's produced from fools fuel.

 

[mblakele]

Now Is The Right Time To Bet On EVs, Says Honda

Does that explain Toyota’s plans to do the same thing?

NOV 11, 2019

Japanese carmakers are famous for making safe bets, which is often taken for lack of celerity. They prefer to see competitors’ initiatives and, if they pay off, they get to tackle these competitors with products that offer more reliability or any other significant advantage. So when Hondasays that now is the right time to embrace EVs, as it did to The Sunday Times, that is probably something the whole Japanese automotive industry will do as well.

We have clear signs of that. Toyota is now speaking of electric cars. It is making an agreement with BYD. Lexus will present its first EV next November 22 at the Guangzhou Motor Show. Nissan already has the Leaf and the e-Power system, very similar to what Honda now offers with e:HEV on the hybrid CR-V. We’ll probably hear about more companies from Japan going on the same path soon.

But what will happen to FCEVs? Honda made big bets on this technology in the past with the Clarity, for example. Ian Howells, another Honda Europe’s senior vice president, said this:

“We’re in the situation where the infrastructure isn’t there either. There is an infrastructure being developed very rapidly for battery-electric cars, but there’s nothing really to talk of about hydrogen, so there’s a way to go yet.”

Katsushi Inoue, Honda Europe’s president, also dismissed any chances of seeing a new FCEV from the Japanese carmaker anytime soon:

“Our focus is on hybrid and electric vehicles now. Maybe hydrogen fuel cell cars will come, but that’s a technology for the next era.”
​

The quotes are sourced from this article:

Honda: now is the right time to embrace electric cars

So what has happened to hydrogen, once so important to Honda’s future? Hydrogen vehicles are essentially electric cars, powered by electric motors, except the energy comes from a chemical reaction in the fuel cell stack rather than from a battery, as in a pure-electric car.

The insider joke about using fuel cells for passenger cars is that it’s a technology about 20 years from mass-market… and has been for decades. Honda Europe’s president Katsushi Inoue did nothing to change that perception.

“Our focus is on hybrid and electric vehicles now,” he told us. “Maybe hydrogen fuel cell cars will come, but that’s a technology for the next era.”

Ian Howells, Honda Europe’s senior vice president, added: “We’re in the situation where the infrastructure isn’t there either [to support hydrogen fuel cell cars]. There is an infrastructure being developed very rapidly for battery electric cars, but there’s nothing really to talk of about hydrogen, so there’s a way to go yet.”​

 

[JohnSnowNW]

This discussion about Japan seems to be a red herring, to distract from H2's failure in the marketplace — and to drive engagement with misinformation.

It's tempting to think that certain users are paid to make that happen. Amateurs usually aren't quite so enthusiastically and creatively obtuse.

Getting back to the facts: BEV is burying HFCEV in the passenger vehicle market. BEV is affordable, efficient, and green — right now, whereas HFCEV is pie in the sky. Plus BEV will benefit as the grid continues to get cleaner and battery technologies continue to improve. On past form that means BEV will stay well ahead of HFCEV.

I don't know, I think Japan is a great example of just how poorly FCEVs have been received. They have 3x the number of H2 stations as the US, full Govt. support, fantastic incentives...and they still have fewer FCEVs on the road than California.

Instead of producing RE H2, Japan is importing H2 produced from Australian brown coal...the "dirtiest" coal there is.

I mean, you can't make this stuff up.

 

[FactsBot]

Instead of producing RE H2, Japan is importing H2 produced from Australian brown coal...the "dirtiest" coal there is.

that's not how it works. The brown coal is gasified to produce low-cost hydrogen, with the carbon pumped back underground.

Explainer: how do we make hydrogen from coal, and is it really a clean fuel?

 

[mblakele]

Talk about damning with faint praise. It turns out "not a terrible idea" is a ringing endorsement for hydrogen.

So why bother making hydrogen?

[...] depending on the end-use of the hydrogen, and subsequent transport processes, you might be better off in terms of energy output, or efficiency (and therefore carbon emissions), just straight-up burning the coal to make electricity.

But by using gasification of coal to make hydrogen, we can start building much-needed infrastructure and developing consumer markets (that is, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles) for a truly clean future fuel.

I predict that hydrogen power will be zero-emission one day. It can be made in a variety of ways through pure water splitting (including electrolysis, or through solar thermochemical and photoelectrochemical technologies, to name a few). It’s not there yet in terms of price or practicality, but it is certainly on its way. Boosting development of the hydrogen economy through production from coal in the meantime is, in my book, not a terrible idea overall.​

 

[nwdiver]

Talk about damning with faint praise. It turns out "not a terrible idea" is a ringing endorsement for hydrogen.

So why bother making hydrogen?

[...] depending on the end-use of the hydrogen, and subsequent transport processes, you might be better off in terms of energy output, or efficiency (and therefore carbon emissions), just straight-up burning the coal to make electricity.

But by using gasification of coal to make hydrogen, we can start building much-needed infrastructure and developing consumer markets (that is, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles) for a truly clean future fuel.

I predict that hydrogen power will be zero-emission one day. It can be made in a variety of ways through pure water splitting (including electrolysis, or through solar thermochemical and photoelectrochemical technologies, to name a few). It’s not there yet in terms of price or practicality, but it is certainly on its way. Boosting development of the hydrogen economy through production from coal in the meantime is, in my book, not a terrible idea overall.​

And in this case you can have one without the other... so why not 'perfect' and scale the clean production of H2 and AFTER that's well on its way THEN start to look for other uses....

The 'weakest link' with BEVs is the production of BEVs... that improves by making more BEVs.
The 'weakest link' with FCEVs is the production of Hydrogen... that improves by making more H2 from clean sources.

We should be making more BEVs and more clean H2...

The use of FCEVs or H2 as an energy carrier benefits nothing for the foreseeable future (>20 years).

 

[FactsBot]

For the 11th time; As long as there's industrial demand for H2 it makes no sense to use H2 as an energy carrier REGARDLESS of how it's produced. If you've just produced 100kg of H2 you can ship it to displace 130kg of CH4. H2 is H2.

It's a global economy. As long as H2 is being produced on an industrial scale from fools fuel the only rational use of any H2 that's produced from a clean source is to displace H2 that's produced from fools fuel.

Ok. So from now on Japan, instead of using their own steam reformed H2 for the industrial needs, will be importing green H2. How is that bad?
By the way they should replace the dirtiest plant first, which might not be the steam reformer.
And importing more LNG won't clean up their electricity as already mentioned. This might be the reason why they don't talk about BEVs. More electric car means more LNG as per current grid mix.

Sounds quite the opposite to Trump, read the section "Disruptive innovations for Climate Change" if interested

'Defeatism about Japan is now defeated': Read Abe's Davos speech in full

 

[mblakele]

So why bother making hydrogen?

Hydrogen produced in this way is not a zero-emission fuel. Carbon dioxide is emitted through the combustion and thermal decomposition reactions, and is also a product of the reaction between carbon monoxide and water to make hydrogen and carbon dioxide.
​

In case anyone missed it, they're burning coal to gasify coal. Capture the CO2 and CO? Not mentioned in the article.

Sorry, not green — no matter what color they use on the visual aids. At best it's "not a terrible idea".

But it is pretty funny, in its way.

 

[mblakele]

Mods, could we rename this thread "So why bother making hydrogen?"

I think it'd be an improvement.

 

[nwdiver]

Ok. So from now on Japan, instead of using their own steam reformed H2 for the industrial needs, will be importing green H2. How is that bad?
By the way they should replace the dirtiest plant first, which might not be the steam reformer.
And importing more LNG won't clean up their electricity as already mentioned. This might be the reason why they don't talk about BEVs. More electric car means more LNG as per current grid mix.

Sounds quite the opposite to Trump, read the section "Disruptive innovations for Climate Change" if interested

'Defeatism about Japan is now defeated': Read Abe's Davos speech in full

For the 12th time because importing H2 for energy (even if it's carbon neutral) would be counter productive if they can use 10kg of H2 to displace 13kg of CH4. The best thing for them do to is massively scale the production of clean H2... and sell it as H2.

 

[mblakele]

 

[FactsBot]

So why bother making hydrogen?

Hydrogen produced in this way is not a zero-emission fuel. Carbon dioxide is emitted through the combustion and thermal decomposition reactions, and is also a product of the reaction between carbon monoxide and water to make hydrogen and carbon dioxide.
​

In case anyone missed it, they're burning coal to gasify coal. Capture the CO2 and CO? Not mentioned in the article.

Sorry, not green — no matter what color they use on the visual aids. At best it's "not a terrible idea".

But it is pretty funny, in its way.

Underground coal gasification - SourceWatch

"During gasification, approximately half of the sulfur, mercury, arsenic, tar, and particulates from the used coal remain below ground."

"For comparison, the ash content of UCG syngas is estimated to be approximately 10 mg/m³ compared to smoke from burning where ash content may be up to 70 mg/m³."

 

[nwdiver]

Underground coal gasification - SourceWatch

"During gasification, approximately half of the sulfur, mercury, arsenic, tar, and particulates from the used coal remain below ground."

"For comparison, the ash content of UCG syngas is estimated to be approximately 10 mg/m³ compared to smoke from burning where ash content may be up to 70 mg/m³."

Fun Fact: The same is true for using LNG....

LNG: Cleaner, Cheaper and Easier to transport.

 

[FactsBot]

For the 12th time because importing H2 for energy (even if it's carbon neutral) would be counter productive if they can use 10kg of H2 to displace 13kg of CH4. The best thing for them do to is massively scale the production of clean H2... and sell it as H2.

For the twelfth time I don't understand this. Where do they get that 10kg if it's not imported? Their primary problem is that they don't have enough self supported energy. So running electrolyzers is no fun when the grid is dirty.

 

[FactsBot]

Fun Fact: The same is true for using LNG....

LNG: Cleaner, Cheaper and Easier to transport.

Rocket fuel: Australia targets hydrogen as next big energy export

“The development of a hydrogen business is similar to the early days of the LNG business,” said Shaun Gregory, Woodside’s executive vice president for exploration and technology.

To reduce global warming, hydrogen could be used in fuel cells for vehicles and manufacturing plants, and could eventually replace natural gas for space heating, water heating and cooking in homes.

Output may start through the gasification of brown coal with the hydrogen and carbon dioxide separated out. But eventually wind and solar power would be used to crack water to become the biggest hydrogen source.

Currently, hydrogen derived from coal gasification is cheaper to produce than from water.

 

[mblakele]

Imagine how clean coal would be if we just left it underground!

 

[FactsBot]

Imagine how clean coal would be if we just left it underground!

They claim they pump it back.