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Hydrogen vs. Battery

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Might as well post this:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/12/new-catalyst-can-produce-hydrogen-from-seawater/amp/

The dream of hydrogen power refuses to die. The allure is a source of energy with no emissions other than water vapor and a little heat. That’s an exciting prospect at a time when carbon emissions threaten the very existence of the human race. But there are some problems. Most hydrogen today is made from natural gas and most of that comes from fracking, a process that injects millions of gallons of highly polluted water deep underground to release the trapped gas. Huge quantities of it escape into the atmosphere as methane, a greenhouse gas many times more powerful than carbon dioxide. So while the end product of hydrogen as a fuel is promising, getting the hydrogen is a deal with the devil that has total emissions greater than those from burning coal.

[...]

Pure fresh water is a scarce commodity in the world today and getting more scarce all the time. Using what little is available to make hydrogen may not be the best use for it. But researchers at the University of Houston say they have developed a new catalyst composed of inexpensive non-noble metal nitrides that makes it possible to split seawater at low voltages. Their work is described in Nature Communications.

[...]

First author Luo Yu, a postdoctoral researcher at UH who is also affiliated with Central China Normal University, says cell voltages required to produce a current density of 100 milliamperes per square centimeter ranged from 1.564 V to 1.581 V. The voltage is significant, Yu adds, because while a voltage of at least 1.23 V is required to produce hydrogen, chlorine is produced at a voltage of 1.73 V, meaning the device had to be able to produce meaningful levels of current density with a voltage between the two levels.

And so the search for a hydrogen economy continues. Pure water is much too valuable to use to make hydrogen, but if a way can be found to use seawater or wastewater, the possibilities for hydrogen from non-polluting sources are much greater than previously thought possible.

There is a secondary benefit from this research. In addition to making hydrogen, it could also be used to purify seawater into fresh water for drinking or irrigation. As sources of fresh water become more scarce, that other purpose could turn out to be more important to people than hydrogen.
 
Might as well post this:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/12/new-catalyst-can-produce-hydrogen-from-seawater/amp/

The dream of hydrogen power refuses to die. The allure is a source of energy with no emissions other than water vapor and a little heat. That’s an exciting prospect at a time when carbon emissions threaten the very existence of the human race. But there are some problems. Most hydrogen today is made from natural gas and most of that comes from fracking, a process that injects millions of gallons of highly polluted water deep underground to release the trapped gas. Huge quantities of it escape into the atmosphere as methane, a greenhouse gas many times more powerful than carbon dioxide. So while the end product of hydrogen as a fuel is promising, getting the hydrogen is a deal with the devil that has total emissions greater than those from burning coal.

[...]

Pure fresh water is a scarce commodity in the world today and getting more scarce all the time. Using what little is available to make hydrogen may not be the best use for it. But researchers at the University of Houston say they have developed a new catalyst composed of inexpensive non-noble metal nitrides that makes it possible to split seawater at low voltages. Their work is described in Nature Communications.

[...]

First author Luo Yu, a postdoctoral researcher at UH who is also affiliated with Central China Normal University, says cell voltages required to produce a current density of 100 milliamperes per square centimeter ranged from 1.564 V to 1.581 V. The voltage is significant, Yu adds, because while a voltage of at least 1.23 V is required to produce hydrogen, chlorine is produced at a voltage of 1.73 V, meaning the device had to be able to produce meaningful levels of current density with a voltage between the two levels.

And so the search for a hydrogen economy continues. Pure water is much too valuable to use to make hydrogen, but if a way can be found to use seawater or wastewater, the possibilities for hydrogen from non-polluting sources are much greater than previously thought possible.

There is a secondary benefit from this research. In addition to making hydrogen, it could also be used to purify seawater into fresh water for drinking or irrigation. As sources of fresh water become more scarce, that other purpose could turn out to be more important to people than hydrogen.

A FCEV in 2019 makes less sense than a BEV would have in 1954. It's a cute novelty but it doesn't really further anything and from any energy balance perspective it's counter productive. In ~30 years when there's more wind, more solar and more clean H2 maybe...
 
SCORECARD... (IOW, "Oh noes, FACTS")

Number of EVs on US roads: Over 1.1 million
Number of FCVs on US roads: 6,558
IOW, about 170 EVs for every FCV. Or, put more succinctly.... "What's an FCV?" :D

Fact of the Month March 2019: There Are More Than 6,500 Fuel Cell Vehicles On the Road in the U.S.
Number of plug-in cars climbs to 5.6M worldwide - electrive.com
.

That is really impressive! After so many years of hoopla and incentives! So I just checked.
All the EVs together in USA displaced a whole 0% of transportation fuel in 2018 !
Guess what had exponential growth for years and displaced 5% of transport fuel? Biodiesel.
There is one airline that completely switched over to biofuel for their flights out of Los Angeles.
For the green folks living there (that includes our beloved Elon Musk), guess what airline you should use for your outbound flights from LAX? :)

Which emits more CO2? 100 tons of CO2 from oil or 80 tons of CO2 from coal? Math :)
Your 'Math' seems wrong as usual. Show the calculations. Use the hybrid as the standard of comparison, and not compare a compact electric sedan, e.g. Model 3, to a Hummer H2, like the other comps #H2Q likes to do. ;)

I feel like team #H2Q here has lost the case. So now they have descended down to bickering and personal attacks etc. while huddled up in the cornered spot. Not that I mind. :)
But I'm starting to feel sympathy for you folks. Your questions made me wonder, how many of YOU are on some electric company payroll and may not be looking good to YOUR bosses? i heard of some crazy boss fires at whim.

I think I shall take a break, while you can regroup and have some long #H2FUDCampaign brainstorming sessions to figure out next angles of attack. :p Hey, I let you use your life lines to Elon Musk and Fred for some new #H2FUD ideas. :)

OK, I am going off TMC now.;)
 
Nice to see that Brad Templeton is largely on the same page we are. He's a smart guy.

What’s Hydrogen’s Future As Transportation Energy?

Hydrogen is often touted as an important transportation “fuel” in the future, though it has never gotten significant traction. One reason is confusion over what it is – it’s not an energy source, though it is used like a fuel, but rather a form of energy storage. You take some other energy source (today it’s natural gas, in the future it’s renewable electricity) and you generate the hydrogen, which you can then turn back into useful energy through a fuel cell, or even by burning it.

Hyundai’s Mobility Innovator’s Forum closed a week of 3 different California mobility conferences I attended.

[...]

People had hopes for hydrogen cars, and due to regulations, some have been produced such as the Toyota Mirai. They are not very good, and few have sold, and with filling stations being very rare, not convenient to use. Boosters of hydrogen didn’t predict the way that lithium battery prices would plummet, and it seems it’s time to declare batteries as the winner, at least for now, in electric cars.

[...]

Hydrogen may still have promise as a truck and bus fuel. While these are also being built with batteries, the amount of batteries they need is very large, and the amount of power needed to charge them in a reasonable time is immense – several megawatts. The weight of such large battery packs is very high compared with both diesel and hydrogen, and trucks and buses can handle having large tanks on board. As such, this is where the action may be for hydrogen in ground transport.

[...]

So the future isn’t probably full of hydrogen as its boosters imagine, but there is hope yet.
There's more; but it's off-topic for this particular thread, which is about EVs and hydrogen.
 
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Your 'Math' seems wrong as usual. Show the calculations.

LOL; You're ignoring reality as usual.

Using an apples-apples comparison the embedded energy of a BEV is paid back after ~80k miles. Even when powered by coal (which is less and less likely) BEVs are still ~20% better than ICE... even if that ICE is a hybrid (unless that Hybrid has a plug :))

I also seem to recall someone whining about using a worst case scenario ;)

You seem to get stuck in the worst case for H2 to prove your point

With BEVs even in that scenario they still beat out hybrids in the long run...

How do FCEVs hold up in 'worst case'? (In " because worst case is for right now often real world)

You start with 100kWh CH4....
Stream reforming costs up to 35% now you have 65 kWh
Conversion to LH2 costs up to 40% now you have 39 kWh
Boil-off costs you 15% now you have 33 kWh
Compression to fill a car costs another 10% now you're left with 30kWh... the equivalent of <1 gallon of gasoline.

Using 100kWh of methane to make electricity a BEV can go ~160 miles. 'Worse Case' (Often real world) for a FCEV? .... ~60 miles ... thermodynamic nightmare :(
 
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OK, I am going off TMC now.;)
You finally posted something sensible.
66b1fdda56a6bf5cac2992db15a1748a.jpg
 
I know FAR more people using the supposed future dominance of H2 to keep their fools fuel addiction than those that have actually broken their fools fuel addiction with H2. IMO the last thing the oil majors would want is for this illusion that a Hydrogen economy is just around the corner to be broken.

Who are they?

Oil majors paying car makers to invest in H2 development?

Oil majors have plenty of time to convert to renewable energy. Some have already started it. Better call them energy companies than oil companies.

New Energies
Builder of Saudi Aramco oil rigs plans to expand into wind power - Renewable Energy World
 
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Oil majors have plenty of time to convert to renewable energy.

LOL! They started and gave up years ago. Go try to buy a Arco or BP solar panel.... they exist but they're all >10 years old. They gave up because pulling hydro carbons out of the ground and forcing the next generation to clean up the mess is WAY more profitable. And more pathetic but that's not their problem unless we make it their problem.....
 
Daimler just released their FCEV and can wait 5 years to see how it plays out since things are happening slowly
Germany expands hydrogen infrastructure - electrive.com
Plan for 80 hydrogen fuel stations for Ireland by 2030

VW was forced to enter the BEV business, but even they are careful. For example they were ok with lower efficiency in the Audi E-Tron by using induction motors instead of permanent magnets, since these latter need rare metals and they expect some shortage or at least price volatility there. For some reason all the Germans are careful making steps in EV world.


One more interesting datapoint. As mentioned earlier Audi worries about rare earth metals. Now BMW plans to use induction motors from 2021 to get rid of rare metals:

"BMW wants to do without rare earth in its electric drives by switching to externally excited asynchronous motors from 2021."

BMW opens Battery Competence Centre in Munich - electrive.com
 
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LOL! They started and gave up years ago. Go try to buy a Arco or BP solar panel.... they exist but they're all >10 years old. They gave up because pulling hydro carbons out of the ground and forcing the next generation to clean up the mess is WAY more profitable. And more pathetic but that's not their problem unless we make it their problem.....

All of them gave up on it? Ah, good to know.
 
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All of them gave up on it? Ah, good to know.

When you own oil reserves that you can access for <$10/bbl or $0.001/kWh what sense does it make to squander capital on solar that costs $0.02/kWh? The business model of fools fuel companies is to mortgage the future for profit today. So long as we allow them to do that and there's still oil in the ground that's what they're going to do.....
 
When you own oil reserves that you can access for <$10/bbl or $0.001/kWh what sense does it make to squander capital on solar that costs $0.02/kWh? The business model of fools fuel companies is to mortgage the future for profit today. So long as we allow them to do that and there's still oil in the ground that's what they're going to do.....

For example governments. While they are succeeding in the US with Trump, other countries do want to increase their share of renewable energy. Companies who don't catch up will fall behind. The oil reserves will worth nothing if no one is allowed to use oil. Some European cities are planning to ban non-ZEV cars in the foreseeable future.

Additionally this transition is very slow. There is no reason why oil companies should worry about their revenues for the next 10-20 years unfortunately given that emerging countries (can't pay for electric cars but can import cheap, used gas cars ) will bring in the missing revenues from the EVs of developed countries.
 
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This thread is about BEV vs HFCEV

You can tell because it's in the Electric Vehicles sub-forum.

I'm trying to figure out why are the Germans and Japanese so afraid of BEVs and that piece of information might be important.

Why is Daimler ok with this:

they knew the 2021 target long time ago. plenty of time to come up with alternatives, yet they only have one BEV and one FCEV.

Daimler facing one of the worst years in a decade as CO2 compliance costs bite

Honda wants to electrify 2/3rds of their fleet by 2030, but those are PHEVs

Honda: now is the right time to embrace electric cars
 
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