Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Hydrogen vs. Battery

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
The idea that it will end up in a technology surpassing the other into irrelevance, that fear it will happen like that, might be why some companies are so reluctant to support either one.

I don't think it will happen like that, at least not overnight. But the idea it will, means that the capital investment of companies betting on the wrong technology will cost them dearly.

When people blame smaller car makers for not jumping on board with green tech, they sometimes forget what type of investments are needed to do this.

"Well, Tesla is doing it and they're a small start up". Sure, but they're making limited cars and are willing to take that risk. I think many car companies are waiting to see which technology offers good margins and is sustainable for them.

I personally think both technologies will coexist, but maybe I'm wrong and maybe one becomes market dominant, or maybe it will be region specific, time will tell. Maybe a new technology will surpass both, flow batteries are very interesting, but just not there yet in terms of liquid cost and energy density, but it might just need an organic liquid to surpass both pure EV and HFC tech.
 
Last edited:
Neither is perfect, nor need be, but one is clearly superior for many reasons, so efforts should be focused on it, not wasted on the other.

Today we introduce a Zehner debunker, Bob Bruninga, a senior research engineer at the US Naval Academy. He’s been an EV owner since 1980 and, like Zerner, built his own EV. He’s built several, in fact, dating back to 1970. A member of one of the oldest EV car clubs in the country, the EV Association of Greater Washington, DC(EVADC), Bruninga is also on the committee of the Transportation and Aerospace Policy at the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), the “world’s largest professional association for the advancement of technology.”



http://www.thecleanenergyexchange.org/posts/view/the-future-is-now-for-electric-vehicles/xyg2pa8k5b/

More:

http://www.cleanenergyauthority.com...llusions-distorts-solar-on-environment-060712
http://www.plugincars.com/attacking-evs-new-book-says-electric-cars-arent-clean-123063.html
http://www.wired.com/2012/07/green-illusion/all/
 
What's the "right" answer for large commercial vehicles though? BEV tech would be too costly and recharging times too high for commercial trucks and buses. Is Hydrogen a better answer there?

That's pretty much the basis of Toyota's argument. They classify HFC and BEV by required power

The argument revolves around where you start seeing the benefit of hydrogen over lithium.

Lithium is not feasable for something like back-up power, hydrogen is, it is commonly used as a green back up solution for things like hospitals / manufacturing etc.

On the other hand hydrogen is not feasable for small appliances, you're not going to see a HFC ipad any time soon, they will keep using lithium batteries.

But what about everything in between, where do you make the split, is it at small cars, it is at large cars, is it at truck, etc

juhkjh.jpg
 
Last edited:
What's the "right" answer for large commercial vehicles though? BEV tech would be too costly and recharging times too high for commercial trucks and buses. Is Hydrogen a better answer there?

Local buses can work with batteries.
a) Buses transport people, which are a relatively low density load
b) Buses have significant stops on their route at termini and busy stops.

The real problem is freight. The heavy weights make full electrification difficult. I'd think that HFCV might work for freight, although I think that CNG would likely be much cheaper.
 
That's pretty much the basis of Toyota's argument. They classify HFC and BEV by required power

The argument revolves around where you start seeing the benefit of hydrogen over lithium.

Lithium is not feasible for something like back-up power, hydrogen is, it is commonly used as a green back up solution for things like hospitals / manufacturing etc.

Depends on back-up power needs. At lower prices, lithium batteries can work as back-up, in part because the batteries are two-way devices that can also help with demand management and improved utilization of PV power generation. Fuel cells are one-way devices. As with many battery uses, current deployments of fuel cells are still dependent on tax credits. Nothing is real.

On the other hand hydrogen is not feasable for small appliances, you're not going to see a HFC ipad any time soon, they will keep using lithium batteries.

But what about everything in between, where do you make the split, is it at small cars, it is at large cars, is it at truck, etc

<toyota image>

Toyota's vision of the future is small BEVs, PHEVs and H(E/FC)Vs for medium and then HFCV for large vehicles. Tesla is been busy trying to prove Toyota and others wrong. If the Gigafactory hits anywhere near target BEV and PHEV will eat an increasing size of the pie and that pie could reach large local passenger (buses) and small freight (local delivery vans).

It depends largely on the price of batteries, but also power electronics. HFCV and BEV both have an electric drivetrain, but use different methods to get electricity to the inverter. Tesla's battery target is $100/kWh. DoE's fuel cell target is $30/kW. (Note that pricing is per kW for fuel cells.) Have you noticed how performance of fuel cell cars is poor? That's because to reduce costs they limit the power. Not only does is save costs in the fuel cell, it saves costs in the EV drivetrain, with less powerful motors and inverters.

The Nissan Leaf has an 80kW motor. For the Leaf with a 6.6kW charger and CHAdeMO you'll pay around $32k. Now imagine batteries are $100/kWh and assume Nissan's current $270/kWh effective pricing on their battery is accurate. You get to drop the current price by $4k and it'll cost you only $3,600 to add the extra 36kWh of capacity, with total battery costs being $6k. Using Tesla's battery, the Leaf would be a bit heavier, but actually not that much, because the Leaf currently uses a significantly lower density of battery than Tesla will use in the Model 3. They would need to add some cost to increase the charge to the battery, but 50% faster A/C charging at 9.9kW is more than enough for home use, and then they'd want Supercharger access, which would also add some cost, but that additional capability won't be more than $5k, and that's likely to fall over time as power electronics continue to fall in price.

Meanwhile, an 80kW fuel cell is targeted to be $2,400, plus the HFCV also has a hybrid battery, which has more demanding/kWh performance characteristics and will be unmanaged so will not be as cheap per kWh as a Tesla battery.

So, sure your low-power HFCV could, at price targets, be a few thousand dollars cheaper than a long-range BEV, but the BEV will be charged the vast majority of the time at night on cheap electricity using spare electrical infrastructure capacity instead of costly dedicated public infrastructure.

But, there's a elephant in the room. If drivers want better 0-60 performance than the sluggish 10-12s that current HFCVs have, they'll have to pay a $30/kW performance premium that a BEV owner doesn't pay for because paying for extra battery capacity also adds performance potential. The more power a driver wants, the narrower the price gap would be. (And guess where the large margins are). To give you some idea on performance, to match the Volt's 111kW would add a $900 premium, to get to the Model S60's 225kW would add over $4,000.

All this is, of course, conjecture based on stated cost targets, but:
- on the one hand we have Tesla: selling 1,000s per month of a performance BEV in the 10s of 1,000s per year; within a year of selling a 4WD version; building their own network of fast chargers on 3 continents; cell manufacturing partner is adding significant chunks of capacity; getting ready, with partners, to build a $5B battery manufacturing facility with target initial production in 2017 and full production 2020; have stated price and launch targets on next generation car.
- on the other hand we have auto manufacturers: lease-only HFCVs in small numbers; lease-only targets around 1,000 per year; refueling infrastructure will paid for with subsidies of $2M per station; no preparations for scaling up fuel cell manufacturing
 
What's the "right" answer for large commercial vehicles though? BEV tech would be too costly and recharging times too high for commercial trucks and buses. Is Hydrogen a better answer there?

I disagree about buses. I think that buses could possibly work as BEVs. They always follow the same route, they sometimes have dedicated bus lanes and stop in bus terminals for several minutes to stay on schedule.
They would by hybrid buses, pure electric but pick up juice when they can from an inductive connection or a pantograph to an overhead wire, and use battery when they can not.
This would let you only cover a portion of the routes with overhead wires, perhaps at every stop, on very slow stop and go road sections ( to maximize time connected and charging ) and on uphills ( so that you pull grid juice to go uphill instead of from the battery ). You also try to cover roads that are common to multiple routes.
If you could get a ratio of uncovered to covered road high enough the system might be very economical, and your battery size could be small and cheap - just big enough to optimize the use of the "charging lanes" and get you across the biggest gaps.
By covering the right sections of road, you could probably achieve a much higher ratio of time charging to time discharging, even though the ratio of miles covered to miles uncovered is lower.

Trucks are harder because they could drive anywhere.
 
... their plans are better than the DCFC plans for non-Tesla electric vehicles. It is not possible to drive between the Bay Area and LA using CHAdeMO or SAE Combo today. There are grants in process for installing fast chargers along I-5 and Hwy-99, but I'll believe it when I see it.

The state of California never really promoted DC fast charging infrastructure like they will do for hydrogen. There are many reasons for that, but the bottom line is that Washington and Oregon both actually did build a West Coast Electric Highway. You can drive a short range car like a LEAF just about any place you want to go.

That's what California could have done, too.

http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/pdfs/WCEH_infrastructure.pdf

West Coast Green Highway: Home
 
Last edited:
The state of California never really promoted DC fast charging infrastructure like they will do for hydrogen. There are many reasons for that, but the bottom line is that Washington and Oregon both actually did build a West Coast Electric Highway. You can drive a short range car like a LEAF just about any place you want to go.

That's what California could have done, too.

http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/pdfs/WCEH_infrastructure.pdf

West Coast Green Highway: Home

Yes, but at 40-60 miles of driving followed by 30 minutes of recharging, most people would go crazy driving a LEAF long distances. That's stopping for a half hour after every hour of driving. Less than an hour of driving if you're on I-5 and doing 80 mph to avoid being a traffic hazard.

People might put up with that on a 2 hour drive. Doing that on a 7 hour drive is just too painful.

So the West Coast highway might work for Oregon and Washington but the major areas in CA are spread so far apart that driving a LEAF between them doesn't make sense.

I'm not a hydrogen fan at all but if hydrogen or CNG trucks can go longer between refuels than a Model S, I can see value in putting a handful of refueling stations along the major CA transport corridors and in the major destination areas. Whereas putting Fast DC chargers along I-5 makes no sense unless we have longer ranged EVs that can use them and the charging rate is faster than current Chademo charging stations deliver.
 
Yes, but at 40-60 miles of driving followed by 30 minutes of recharging, most people would go crazy driving a LEAF long distances. That's stopping for a half hour after every hour of driving. Less than an hour of driving if you're on I-5 and doing 80 mph to avoid being a traffic hazard.

People might put up with that on a 2 hour drive. Doing that on a 7 hour drive is just too painful.

So the West Coast highway might work for Oregon and Washington but the major areas in CA are spread so far apart that driving a LEAF between them doesn't make sense.

I'm not a hydrogen fan at all but if hydrogen or CNG trucks can go longer between refuels than a Model S, I can see value in putting a handful of refueling stations along the major CA transport corridors and in the major destination areas. Whereas putting Fast DC chargers along I-5 makes no sense unless we have longer ranged EVs that can use them and the charging rate is faster than current Chademo charging stations deliver.
I agree that a Leaf is a miserable long distance car. However, once you get up to a 40 to 50kWh battery pack, it's tolerable and more reasonable to use 50kW DCFC for trips that take 4-5 hours in an ICE-V. Two hours of driving and 45 minutes of charging should be possible with a Leaf with a double-capacity pack, should they ever build one. The RAV4 EV with the upcoming CHAdeMO mod would also be tolerable for driving from SF to LA if there were CHAdeMO chargers along the way.
 
I disagree about buses. I think that buses could possibly work as BEVs. They always follow the same route, they sometimes have dedicated bus lanes and stop in bus terminals for several minutes to stay on schedule.
They would by hybrid buses, pure electric but pick up juice when they can from an inductive connection or a pantograph to an overhead wire, and use battery when they can not.
This would let you only cover a portion of the routes with overhead wires, perhaps at every stop, on very slow stop and go road sections ( to maximize time connected and charging ) and on uphills ( so that you pull grid juice to go uphill instead of from the battery ). You also try to cover roads that are common to multiple routes.
If you could get a ratio of uncovered to covered road high enough the system might be very economical, and your battery size could be small and cheap - just big enough to optimize the use of the "charging lanes" and get you across the biggest gaps.
By covering the right sections of road, you could probably achieve a much higher ratio of time charging to time discharging, even though the ratio of miles covered to miles uncovered is lower.

Trucks are harder because they could drive anywhere.
I think it's clear who's winning in the bus-segment - how many hydrogen buses are there in the world? 20? On the other hand, BYD has delivered several hundred all-electric buses, and they have orders for several thousand more. BYD electric bus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electric trucks will be introduced at some point, either with a supersupercharger, or battery swapping.
 
Yes, but at 40-60 miles of driving followed by 30 minutes of recharging, most people would go crazy driving a LEAF long distances. That's stopping for a half hour after every hour of driving. Less than an hour of driving if you're on I-5 and doing 80 mph to avoid being a traffic hazard.

People might put up with that on a 2 hour drive. Doing that on a 7 hour drive is just too painful.

So the West Coast highway might work for Oregon and Washington but the major areas in CA are spread so far apart that driving a LEAF between them doesn't make sense.

I'm not a hydrogen fan at all but if hydrogen or CNG trucks can go longer between refuels than a Model S, I can see value in putting a handful of refueling stations along the major CA transport corridors and in the major destination areas. Whereas putting Fast DC chargers along I-5 makes no sense unless we have longer ranged EVs that can use them and the charging rate is faster than current Chademo charging stations deliver.

Let's not compare apples and oranges. Adding Chademo stations isn't supposed to encourage Leaf drivers to drive 500 miles in a day. They aren't intended to make the Leaf a replacement for every possible trip for every possible driver.

A Leaf is an inexpensive short range car. It can cover most ( 85%+) of the driving people want to do with almost no infrastructure other than regular wall plugs. You can drive it to its maximum range and then plug into a household outlet. Add a scattering of level 2 charging and it covers 90% with greater convenience. Adding Fast DC charging gets you to 97%. ( Where I consider anything over 200 miles in the 3% )

A Leaf doesn't need to compete with an FCV. FCVs will cost a lot more, but will remain inferior until there are at least as many H2 stations as Chademo stations.
Even if H2 stations magically existed, the Leaf will still have a market on price and convenience for short range trips.
FCVs will be priced like Teslas and need to compete with Teslas.
 
Let's not compare apples and oranges. Adding Chademo stations isn't supposed to encourage Leaf drivers to drive 500 miles in a day. They aren't intended to make the Leaf a replacement for every possible trip for every possible driver.

A Leaf is an inexpensive short range car. It can cover most ( 85%+) of the driving people want to do with almost no infrastructure other than regular wall plugs. You can drive it to its maximum range and then plug into a household outlet. Add a scattering of level 2 charging and it covers 90% with greater convenience. Adding Fast DC charging gets you to 97%. ( Where I consider anything over 200 miles in the 3% )

A Leaf doesn't need to compete with an FCV. FCVs will cost a lot more, but will remain inferior until there are at least as many H2 stations as Chademo stations.
Even if H2 stations magically existed, the Leaf will still have a market on price and convenience for short range trips.
FCVs will be priced like Teslas and need to compete with Teslas.

I agree with that. But the post I was responding to was calling out CA for not funding an electric highway. My point was that a public-funded electric highway doesn't make sense for most parts of CA because the distances between the major regions of CA are too large for any current EV except a Tesla Model S.

As you say, Leaf's aren't meant to be driven 500 (or really >200) miles in a day. But SF to LA is ~400 miles. Bay Area to Mt Shasta or Tahoe are both ~300 miles and you've got major elevation changes to deal with.

LA to San Diego is about the only major CA transit corridor I can think of where an electric highways makes sense (~90 miles, Orange County to San Diego). Private parties have taken care of that one.
 
Hydrogen FCV Safety Risks

In my opinion, the most significant argument against hydrogen fuel cell vehicles involves the safety risks from hydrogen explosions. This is far beyond the potential consequences of gasoline, diesel, or battery fires in personal vehicles.

I work with industrial high pressure hydrogen processes as a chemical engineer. A significant part of my job is preventing Loss of Primary Containment (LOPC) accidents involving high pressure hydrogen and other flammable gases.

During discussions of hydrogen risks, one often sees comparisons made to the Hindenburg airship disaster. I think that's a poor comparison. The hydrogen in the Hindenburg was not at high pressure.

Fuel cell vehicles such as the Toyota FCV car store hydrogen at very high pressure -- 6 kg of H2 is stored in the car at up to 10,000 psig. This pressure is so high that the decompression force upon catastrophic LOPC could produce a large damage radius even if the compressed gas was merely air. But it's not just air, hydrogen is a flammable gas that has a very wide range between the lower and upper explosive limits when released into air, and has a very low energy for detonation.

The evidence from accidents involving rapid decompression of high pressure hydrogen demonstrates that these events often result in detonation of hydrogen-air mixtures.

Proponents of hydrogen FCVs point to photos showing the controlled release of a vehicle's H2 tank through the tank's pressure relief device (PRD), a very small orifice that is sized to produce the flame shown in the photos. A well-designed PRD in this service will produce a large vertical jet of flame, the least bad direction to aim the flamethrower (assuming the vehicle stays upright). What they don't tell you is that the PRD specified for FCV H2 tanks would not be legal for use to protect industrial vessels used in high pressure H2 service, where we are required to use pressure relief devices to protect against any feasible overpressure scenario.

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle PRDs and CNG vehicle PRDs protect only against specific fire impingement scenarios -- the PRD has to reach a sufficient temperature to melt the plug before it will activate. The idea is that the PRD will activate before the high temperature from an external fire increases the vehicle tank pressure to the catastrophic rupture point. Unfortunately these PRDs don't work in all overpressure scenarios, including all fire scenarios. The PRD did not protect a Honda's CNG tank in this fire. The CNG tank heated up, overpressured, and ruptured before the PRD activated, blowing open the doors and blowing off the roof, and propelling parts of the Honda as much as 100' across a wide radius.

honda.png


In all likelihood, H2 FCV and CNG PRDs don't provide broader overpressure protection because the consequences of a false-positive activation could be pretty severe -- the vertical flamethrower anywhere the car might be located.

Proponents of hydrogen FCVs also point to the DOT bullet test, which pierces the FCV H2 tank with a rifle bullet. However this is misleading. The bullet-sized hole produces a high speed flame jet. It does not illustrate the much more rapid LOPC and explosion that could result if the tank catastrophically ruptured.

The H2 tank in a FCV is undoubtedly very strong. It has to be strong to contain 10,000 psig. In a bad accident, such as the FCV car being rear ended by a large truck or a fire started by some external source, the FCV H2 tank is probably less likely to rupture than a gasoline tank in an ICE vehicle. But in the event of a FCV H2 tank rupture, the consequences could be far worse than an ICE gasoline fire. High pressure vessels also have other failure scenarios, such a brittle fracture, or the failure of associated valves, fittings, or piping.

There was an industrial accident that demonstrates the magnitude of the consequences from an explosion involving 3.5 - 7 kg of hydrogen -- which is coincidentally the amount of H2 in one FCV tank. The amount of H2 that exploded in this accident was calculated by the blast damage:
- prefabricated sections of concrete walls weighing over 1 ton each were blown out along a long length of the building during the explosion
- windows in an adjacent building were shattered, and large shards of glass were embedded in the opposite wall
- all ordinary window glass within 100m and some as far as 700m away was shattered
- the 700 kg/m2 roof of the building was lifted 1.5m from the overpressure of the explosion
- large metal structures were bent, twisted, and some were propelled tens of meters
- two workers were killed, and causalities would have been far higher had it not been a Saturday

Screen Shot 2014-08-11 at 6.15.52 PM.png

Screen Shot 2014-08-11 at 6.17.29 PM.png



Try to imagine this blast damage -- one of the worst industrial hydrogen explosions in history -- in a residential neighborhood, a parking garage, a busy highway, or in a dense commercial district at a filling station.

It's one thing to deal with these amounts of high pressure H2 in industrial settings, far away from the public. It's quite another thing to deal with it in thousands or millions of personal vehicles in homes, cities, or on our public roads. This is an unnecessary risk, there are a number of means of personal vehicle transport that do not involve the high consequences of a 6 kg hydrogen explosion.

A fire in a gasoline or diesel ICE car does not cause explosive blast damage of this magnitude. Only the small percentage of the fuel that has vaporized can explode.

A fire in a BEV car cannot cause damage of this magnitude. The stored energy is simply not there.

Authorities at the San Francisco International Airport didn't have any problem imagining the blast damage from H2 FCVs, because they apparently would not allow a FCV H2 fueling station to be located near their airport.

"A hydrogen explosion in close proximity to active runways and a highway could be catastrophic and result in significant loss of life," [Airport Director] Martin wrote.

This airport handles over 2 million gallons of jet fuel a day, but a nearby H2 filling station for fuel cell vehicles was deemed to be an excessive risk. The H2 supplier Linde -- who has vast experience producing and handling hydrogen on a huge industrial scale -- refused to assume the liability for the FCV H2 fueling station near the airport. If the vicinity of an airport can be deemed an excessive risk for siting a FCV H2 station, imagine the NIMBY fights over locating H2 fueling stations in many of the other places gas stations get located.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree. High pressure Hydrogen is just nuts. The most likely failure scenario is indeed pipes and fittings wearing out. Can you imagine, by the way, Joe the mechanic following the rather detailed safety instructions to the letter when doing routine maintenance on your car? I predict more than a few blown up service stations..
 
Hydrogen tanks are relatively safe. If you think hydrogen is unsafe, you haven't seen accidents with regular gasoline yet, the reason many vehciles in the army we used are diesel is because gasoline is so dangerous when car is being hit by a pothole every 5 minutes. Hydrogen usually doesn't explode or catch fire, since it evaporates upwards in seconds, for hydrogen to be dangerous you need the right concentration of oxygen and hydrogen, and it's rare that actually happens.

The reason people on the ground got hurt in the Hindenburg accident, wasn't the hydrogen, it was the burning aluminium. If the Hindenburg had been filled with gasoline instead of hydrogen, many more people would have been killed. The fact hydrogen evaporates so quickly is what makes it relatively safe during accidents, there are many many substances with low viscosity like gasoline that can be more dangerous than hydrogen.

You can't compare a hydrogen fuel cell to a hydrogen tank, the maginitude of the explosion has more to do with the evaporation rate than with the amount of hydrogen. It wouldn't be possible for a car to cause an explosion like that, it's dishonest to claim it could cause such an explosion, hydrogen is dangerous when it's released in a way that allows for the right oxygen to hydrogen concentration, only then is there a danger for explosions, and because of how HFC are constructed, that's not possible for passenger cars.
 
Last edited: