laservet
Member
And again this morning, decelerated 15-20 mph, hung behind the vehicle in the adjacent lane for 15 seconds before it picked up speed and passed it.
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I can't wait for the next update! Phantom braking is driving me nuts.
- Thread starter Fourdoor
- Start date
We like many things about our model Y. But Not the autosteer or autopilot (TACC). Will try autopilot from time to time but still phantom braking does happen on the latest release.
There is no obvious pattern, except this: my wife is napping in the passenger seat, I'm driving on the freeway with autopilot, no cars nearby, the car suddenly and abruptly slows down even brakes suddenly.. She wakes up and says WHAT DID YOU DO? I answer defensively NOTHING THE CAR DID IT ON ITS OWN! And I proceed to turn Off autopilot. I guess it's something about the cameras, glare from the sun, reflections etc. Anyway no use in guessing why, it's Tesla issue to solve. .
There is no obvious pattern, except this: my wife is napping in the passenger seat, I'm driving on the freeway with autopilot, no cars nearby, the car suddenly and abruptly slows down even brakes suddenly.. She wakes up and says WHAT DID YOU DO? I answer defensively NOTHING THE CAR DID IT ON ITS OWN! And I proceed to turn Off autopilot. I guess it's something about the cameras, glare from the sun, reflections etc. Anyway no use in guessing why, it's Tesla issue to solve. .
Phantom braking makes Auto Pilot on our MY nearly unusable, especially in certain lighting conditions.
I live in Moab, UT, a red rock desert with wide open vistas and deep rock canyons. I often leave early in the morning and drive 250 miles of mostly wide well-striped 2-lane roads to Salt Lake City. In that distance we can experience upwards of more than 25 instances of phantom braking. In the dark, oncoming headlights as far away as 200 yards (really!) can initiate sudden violent braking dropping speed from 65 mph to 40 mph in less than 2 seconds. Other times approaching bridges or guardrails, oncoming trucks (usually dark colored) or sometimes absolutely nothing will cause an event. Most but by no means all braking events occur in poor lighting or with strong side light shadows.
I've endeavored to record many "bug reports" and have force-saved dash cam video but nothing out of the ordinary shows in later reviews. I've recalibrated the cameras with no effect. Here's my personal take on what could be behind phantom braking:
1. It would make sense for Tesla's AP to use the same object recognition algorithms as FSD. When dealing with self-driving, I'm sure Tesla is going to be ultra-conservative in their assessment; they don't want to be accused of causing collisions. Hence, braking is deemed preferable to incorrect analysis leading to a potentially fatal accident. (Although phantom braking can and likely will lead to rear end collisions.)
2. The forward looking cameras used for distance in our MY appear to be spaced no wider apart than human eyes, maybe less. In every other vehicle I've owned with "adaptive speed control" the traffic aware cameras have been spaced upwards of 10"-12" apart. This wider spacing offers far better distance/range analysis. Tesla is counting on their camera quality and range finding technology - but it's not there yet.
Anyway, neither of these conditions are likely to be resolved anytime soon so I end up driving my high tech automobile as if it was 1960.
I live in Moab, UT, a red rock desert with wide open vistas and deep rock canyons. I often leave early in the morning and drive 250 miles of mostly wide well-striped 2-lane roads to Salt Lake City. In that distance we can experience upwards of more than 25 instances of phantom braking. In the dark, oncoming headlights as far away as 200 yards (really!) can initiate sudden violent braking dropping speed from 65 mph to 40 mph in less than 2 seconds. Other times approaching bridges or guardrails, oncoming trucks (usually dark colored) or sometimes absolutely nothing will cause an event. Most but by no means all braking events occur in poor lighting or with strong side light shadows.
I've endeavored to record many "bug reports" and have force-saved dash cam video but nothing out of the ordinary shows in later reviews. I've recalibrated the cameras with no effect. Here's my personal take on what could be behind phantom braking:
1. It would make sense for Tesla's AP to use the same object recognition algorithms as FSD. When dealing with self-driving, I'm sure Tesla is going to be ultra-conservative in their assessment; they don't want to be accused of causing collisions. Hence, braking is deemed preferable to incorrect analysis leading to a potentially fatal accident. (Although phantom braking can and likely will lead to rear end collisions.)
2. The forward looking cameras used for distance in our MY appear to be spaced no wider apart than human eyes, maybe less. In every other vehicle I've owned with "adaptive speed control" the traffic aware cameras have been spaced upwards of 10"-12" apart. This wider spacing offers far better distance/range analysis. Tesla is counting on their camera quality and range finding technology - but it's not there yet.
Anyway, neither of these conditions are likely to be resolved anytime soon so I end up driving my high tech automobile as if it was 1960.
I have a good solution as long as you will be traveling at one speed for the majority of the trip.
Using speed limit mode to get around TACC flaws.
Wonderful discovery this week! When driving at night the current software is nowhere near as good as the software that the car had when I got it from the factory, and thinks about half of the cars on the road in the oncoming lane are actually homicidal maniacs in my lane. My normal work around...
teslamotorsclub.com
Keith
Valtor
Member
I am actually thinking of trading in my 2019 M3 for an older Model S with AP1 just to get rid of phantom braking. Would that be just a dumb move? Or can owners of AP1 models confirm that phantom braking is not as much an issue with AP1? I would be very happy with just dumb adaptive cruise at this point.
Honestly, it is one of the most annoying things about the car that I love otherwise. Phantom braking is totally random and I have not been able to put it together to figure out the case. Also new is "slowing for emergency vehicle" when there are no vehicles or lights in sight. REALLY painful. Anyone else getting these notices?
On the long road trip I recently took with TACC, there were many no-reason braking incidents, but I didn't notice any messages about emergency vehicles. I also tried to engage my problem-solving brain to figure out the causes of the braking, but there seemed to be no consistent thread. Sometimes no traffic nearby, no overpasses with shadows, sometimes there was traffic nearby... I really could not find a pattern before I turned it off and one-pedaled it the rest of the way.
I would accept "dumb" cruise control right now.
As has been pointed out, this used to work much better. I'm guessing we are caught in the wash of the massive merge of city and highway FSD code that apparently happened recently, and much was made worse for us highway drivers. I thought I would avoid a lot of this "bleeding edge of technology" pain by not choosing FSD, but apparently FSD's bleeding edge has caught up with me anyway.
I really hope this is worked out by the Spring - I am considering my next major road trip then. Somehow I am not buying Elon's current "so much better in 2 weeks" statements. I'm a software guy. Spring might be doable, but I am becoming convinced it won't be fixed by Christmas.
I know there is no marketing department, but does Tesla ever acknowledge problems like this? I like to believe they read these forums (I would if I were them) but it'd be good to know we are heard. And yes, I am pretty sure this is a problem a service center can't do a thing about.
I would accept "dumb" cruise control right now.
As has been pointed out, this used to work much better. I'm guessing we are caught in the wash of the massive merge of city and highway FSD code that apparently happened recently, and much was made worse for us highway drivers. I thought I would avoid a lot of this "bleeding edge of technology" pain by not choosing FSD, but apparently FSD's bleeding edge has caught up with me anyway.
I really hope this is worked out by the Spring - I am considering my next major road trip then. Somehow I am not buying Elon's current "so much better in 2 weeks" statements. I'm a software guy. Spring might be doable, but I am becoming convinced it won't be fixed by Christmas.
I know there is no marketing department, but does Tesla ever acknowledge problems like this? I like to believe they read these forums (I would if I were them) but it'd be good to know we are heard. And yes, I am pretty sure this is a problem a service center can't do a thing about.
I agree completely. As a software developer myself I appreciate the complexities involved in dynamic real-time graphic analysis based solely on limited and variable video data. It seems unfortunate that Tesla apparently doesn't solicit owners' video and functional "black box" data (with the owner's explicit permission, of course) to serve as beta test information. I know you can create a "bug report" by making the verbal command, "bug report - phantom braking" which supposedly captures vehicle data, including video, for later download at your next service visit. But making a service visit appointment for phantom braking is useless.
NTSB has criticized Tesla for using the public for FSD beta testing but IMO it's the ONLY way to ensure software is capable of handling real world conditions and TACC is the best and safest foundation upon which to build FSD.
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Ruffles
Member
For those of you having issues, try recalibrating your cameras.
Have recalibrated multiple times without noticeable effect. Minimal phantom braking on interstates and whenever an "extra" lane such as passing lane is between an oncoming semi and me. Also, I often use TACC to help hold slow speed limits (25-30 mph) in town with no phantom braking evident. extreme phantom braking prevalent as previously described at 55mph or higher on wide, well-striped, two-lane highways with long range visibility.
Curious - as a beta tester, are you able to provide feedback for events like this?
Yes. I hit the camera button on the (2) incident to log it. Supposedly cars with FSDbeta are uploading a huge amounts of data daily.
laservet
Member
Twice in my 20 mile drive to work today. Same old same old, nobody in my lane, overtaking a car in an adjacent lane that isn't moving toward my lane, 15 mph hard deceleration over 2-3 seconds, did not accelerate back up to speed in the 10-15 seconds I waited. It eventually would have picked up speed and overtaken the adjacent vehicle but by then I'd have been rear ended going so slow in the fast lane.
Valtor
Member
I just sold my 2019 Model 3 SR+ essentially because of phantom braking and am taking delivery of my new vehicule tomorrow morning. Adios phantom braking. At least I made a profit selling it higher than I paid 2 years ago.
PDX-Y
Member
I'll chime in too. I did my first long road trip in a while today (to goose my Safety Score to 98, of course -- it worked), and the first since the update to 2021.32.22. It was great. Over 400 miles of driving, much of it in the PNW rain, and the car was rock solid. No significant comfort or safety issues at all, just normal gripes about lane selection (it really likes to get back to the right after passing even if I can see another slow car ahead, etc...).
Of course, I fully expect all that tuning to regress once Beta (hopefully! fingers crossed!) arrives, which is (I believe) running an older version of the highway stack and will be merging the highway and streets modes in an upcoming release.
Of course, I fully expect all that tuning to regress once Beta (hopefully! fingers crossed!) arrives, which is (I believe) running an older version of the highway stack and will be merging the highway and streets modes in an upcoming release.
All right, I have to say that with my current update, the phantom braking with TACC (I don't have FSD) seems much improved. I don't trust it fully yet, but I ran it several times during a recent 2-hour round trip, and experienced no phantom braking. There was one point where there was a slowdown cresting a hill, but that was actually wise and didn't seem extreme in the deceleration.
I find that this TACC is now markedly better than last October when I was sorely disappointed in it! Version is 2021.44.30 although my test was against the previous version (I just updated last night but I expect they didn't make it worse).
Way to go, Tesla engineers. Thanks for fixing that.
I find that this TACC is now markedly better than last October when I was sorely disappointed in it! Version is 2021.44.30 although my test was against the previous version (I just updated last night but I expect they didn't make it worse).
Way to go, Tesla engineers. Thanks for fixing that.
laservet
Member
Since going to 2021.44.25.6 I have had only one phantom braking event, but it was dramatic. Nobody in my lane ahead of me, overtaking a vehicle in the adjacent lane, and my car decelerated hard from 75 to 40 mph before I hit the accelerator to avoid getting rear ended. With the older software if I accelerated through the braking event the car would resume the set speed. This time every time I accelerated to speed and then took my foot off the pedal the car would again decelerate hard. It seemed like it was trying to come to a complete stop but I wasn't able to safely let it complete its thing to see. I had to turn off FSD to get it to behave. Hasn't happened any other time, so way, way better than before.
on 2021.44.25.6, we did a trip from Alabama to DC after xmas... probably had about 15-20 of them total. some short bursts, some massive like wtf is going on type things. Really getting to the point I don't want to use cruise. Add in the fact that the auto high beams for the autopilot, and i look like i'm an a-hole driver slamming on brakes and high beaming people all the time.
I would love if they made an easy way to hit a button and say "I just had a phantom brake" so tesla could get the data. On the new software i'm not sure how you would do that...
I would love if they made an easy way to hit a button and say "I just had a phantom brake" so tesla could get the data. On the new software i'm not sure how you would do that...
PDX-Y
Member
Not it didn't. I'm sure that's what it felt like, but those numbers don't work. Best case braking for passenger tires on warm, dry pavement (and this is winter, and there's snow on the ground in VA!) is about 0.7G, or 15 mph/sec. Getting down 35 mph thus takes a little more than two full seconds, with the ABS fully engaged and hearing rubber squealing at the edges of your grip. It didn't take you two seconds to get your foot to the pedal; typical reaction time in an emergency is about 1/4 to 1/8th of that.
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