I think Model S just saved my clueless neighbor and his dog

[AWDtsla]

Sigh... see my earlier posts.

Prius is not a sports car and doesn't have anywhere near the performance level of a sports car (in braking, handling, acceleration, etc.). People don't buy Priuses for sports/performance car characteristics any more than people buy V12-engined cars for good fuel economy.

133 feet 60-0 is just downright dangerous. A performance car should be able to have repeated short braking, but a non-performance car must still be able to manage _one_ emergency highway stop in a short distance.

I get tailgated at 70+mph quite often by one of these 130+ft cars in the M3. They won't pass, they'll just tailgate at .5-1 car lengths, like they have no idea how sh**** the brakes on their car are. I wouldn't even tailgate another M3 at that distance. Of course they really have no clue. Not only that but most reviews still uses 60-0. *everyone* drives 80 mph around here. The difference is even worse. I wouldn't be surprised if a prius cooked the brakes with severe fade at the end from 80 mph.

Of the 303 vehicles Consumer Reports tested, it was better than the average and median of the braking distances. It also placed better than the midpoint of the list. 182 vehicles out of 303 had longer braking distances than the Prius.

This means nothing. It's still crap, better than the average who cares.

 

[cwerdna]

133 feet 60-0 is just downright dangerous. A performance car should be able to have repeated short braking, but a non-performance car must still be able to manage _one_ emergency highway stop in a short distance.

I get tailgated at 70+mph quite often by one of these 130+ft cars in the M3.
...

This means nothing. It's still crap, better than the average who cares.

So, what's your bar for 60 mph to 0 mph of non-"downright dangerous"? I've already listed PLENTY of vehicles that are beyond your threshold of "downright dangerous". FWIW, the BMW 328i they tested (not exactly fast but at least it's from a "performance-oriented" brand) got 132 feet. Is that no longer "downright dangerous"? How about the 137 foot BMW 535i? Is that crazy-uber "downright dangerous"?

The real dangers on the road are those in the bottom 10th percentile or so that also have massive curb weights (5200+ lbs) and horrible accident handling and avoidance capabilities (which also do poorly on CR's accident avoidance test which is measured in mph). Examples would be these:

Chevrolet Suburban - 147 feet [this is in position 288/303, putting it in the bottom 5th percentile of the list]
GMC Yukon XL - 147 feet
(skipped a few that aren't over 5000 lbs..., indicated just by ... below)
Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD (6.6, turbodiesel) - 148 feet
GMC Sierra 2500HD (6.6, turbodiesel) - 148 feet
(...)
Lincoln Navigator - 149 feet
(...)
Toyota Tundra (5.7 V8) - 153 feet,
Ford Expedition EL - 154 feet, 4th worst performer
Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid - 156 feet, 3rd worst performer
GMC Yukon Hybrid - 156 feet, 3rd worst performer
Ford F-250 (6.7 turbodiesel) - 157, 2nd worst performer
Cadiallac Escalade -158 feet, worst performer

 

[jerry33]

I get tailgated at 70+mph quite often by one of these 130+ft cars in the M3. They won't pass, they'll just tailgate at .5-1 car lengths,

If the brakes were better they would just tailgate closer (AFAIK, there is no speed you can go at where you won't be tailgated.) This is an education/enforcement problem, not a braking problem.

 

[AWDtsla]

So, what's your bar for 60 mph to 0 mph of non-"downright dangerous"?

NHSTA mandated minimum brake performance for all passenger cars. Likely 80-0 low 200's, but this would be calculated appropriately.

Cadiallac Escalade -158 feet, worst performer

More reason for the above. Should be illegal.

 

[cwerdna]

NHSTA mandated minimum brake performance for all passenger cars. Likely 80-0 low 200's, but this would be calculated appropriately.

There is a mandate, I believe via FMVSS 135. From Heavy Truck Research | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

In comparison, FMVSS 135 basically requires light vehicles (vehicles with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less except for motorcycles) to stop, also on a high coefficient of friction pavement and with properly working brakes, in 215 feet (the actual requirement is 230 feet from 62 mph (100 kph))

All consumer passenger cars I'm aware of and even the battering ram of death class SUVs (e.g. Escalade, Tahoe, Yukon) are under GVWR of 10,000 lbs. Even the uber-monstrosities (e.g. Hummer H2 and Ford Excursion), which are no longer classified as "light trucks" while over 8500 lb. GVWR are AFAIK under GVWR 10K pounds.

As for 80 mph to 0, why? AFAIK, there are no limits in CA over 70 mph. I only see 2 states at Speed limits in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that have even 80 mph or above limits. Going 80+ mph in my area for a sustained amount of time where limits are typically only 65 mph will definitely stick out.

If you lived in the Seattle area, where many highway speed limits are only 60 mph (and people drive below the speed limit in the fast lane for no reason on clear, daytime, dry conditions) and went 80+ mph, you'd REALLY stick out and the odds of a getting a ticket are very high.

 

[birdsaresmarter]

If the brakes were better they would just tailgate closer (AFAIK, there is no speed you can go at where you won't be tailgated.) This is an education/enforcement problem, not a braking problem.

I tend to agree with this statement. I've also always said most people will just drive as fast at they can until they hit an obstruction. It's just never fast enough for most.

I also put nearly 150,000 miles on the Gen2 Prius and always felt confident with the response on that car. Always felt within control. Just have never felt quite as confident with the 2012 version. Of course compared to the Tesla when I drive it now it feels like it is running away from me all the time.

And maybe strong regen didn't have anything to do with braking at lower speeds but... I still like it :smile:.

- - - Updated - - -

And...getting back to the point of individual responsibility, it's often a matter of understanding limitations. I realize it's probably normal human behavior for everybody to want to think that "they" are more skilled, know their car better, etc, than the "next guy". I think some do, most don't. Since I don't normally feel that confident with the brakes in the newer Prius, guess what I do? Right, I try to leave more stopping distance just in case. It's not a perfect world, so you cannot always do it since everybody does tailgate, they cut in and there goes your distance...constantly adjusting based on speed...that's how it goes. Again, I suppose that goes back to "driving 101". Others think I'm a wussy driving a Prius leaving extra distance. I really don't care what they think.

 

[jcaspar]

And...getting back to the point of individual responsibility, it's often a matter of understanding limitations. I realize it's probably normal human behavior for everybody to want to think that "they" are more skilled, know their car better, etc, than the "next guy". I think some do, most don't. Since I don't normally feel that confident with the brakes in the newer Prius, guess what I do? Right, I try to leave more stopping distance just in case. It's not a perfect world, so you cannot always do it since everybody does tailgate, they cut in and there goes your distance...constantly adjusting based on speed...that's how it goes. Again, I suppose that goes back to "driving 101". Others think I'm a wussy driving a Prius leaving extra distance. I really don't care what they think.

Totally agree. If you drive something with poor brakes, be it a 2900 lb Prius or a 5500 lb Escalade, you need to not follow as close.

 

[birdsaresmarter]

Regen has nothing to do with it... The Prius has sh** brakes just like most cars.

I find it amazing how little people know the device that is most likely to kill them.

All things considered, I'm still of the general opinion that the "device" that is "most likely" to kill them is human; themselves or another.

Knowing technical, mechanical stats of a vehicle may be helpful to some people and maybe in some limited situations, but I don't think that's how most people function. I think most people are not going to be able to accurately calculate these distances in their own heads in real world situations with only moments to react. I think it is more about getting the "feel" for how a vehicle responds and adjusting your own driving habits accordingly. Even with that, however, there will still be some bizarre situations. Example: I recently saw the news clip where the truck flipped over and went through the center divider up around Redwood City. I don't think it really would have mattered how well the people in the fallout zone knew the technical specs of their cars as much as if they had a good feel for how the car responds and react as best they can under the circumstances.

When renting a vehicle that is unfamiliar I know that I initially drive it a little more carefully while I "get the feel for it" even though I have no idea about the tech specs.

Opinions may (and I am sure they will) vary.

 

[neroden]

I do cherish the quiet of these cars and I think it may aid driver concentration. I'm still not convinced it is the quiet that contributes predominantly to all the pedestrian danger situations. I think gratuitous noise can be a problem in it's own right because, at some point, there is too much competing noise and I think it degrades concentration, creating its own hazards.

Agree 100%.

I just don't think that continually upping the ante on noise is the answer.

It certainly is not the answer. High ambient noise has been documented to cause stress-related illnesses.

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(AFAIK, there is no speed you can go at where you won't be tailgated.) This is an education/enforcement problem, not a braking problem.

I am really sick of this and I think it's gotten worse in my neck of the woods in recent years. There are tailgaters everywhere -- and on multi-lane roads, they will also pass and then cut me off with maybe 1 carlength to spare at high speed (which is *extremely* unsafe). I've actually given up driving on certain expressways because there are too many dangerous drivers on the road.

We need to revoke the drivers' licenses of these people and get them off the road. I don't know how to do it.

 

[jerry33]

I think most people are not going to be able to accurately calculate these distances in their own heads in real world situations with only moments to react. I think it is more about getting the "feel" for how a vehicle responds and adjusting your own driving habits accordingly. Even with that, however, there will still be some bizarre situations. Example: I recently saw the news clip where the truck flipped over and went through the center divider up around Redwood City. I don't think it really would have mattered how well the people in the fallout zone knew the technical specs of their cars as much as if they had a good feel for how the car responds and react as best they can under the circumstances.

There are some accidents, such as the truck you mention, that no one can prepare for. They are dramatic but fairly rare. However, the only skill required is the ability to count slowly to three or four and keep that distance between you an the car in front of you. This works regardless of speed.

 

[birdsaresmarter]

Agreed. For generally free flowing highway/freeway traffic, which, around L.A., I think might be more rare than the dramatic truck turnovers! LOL Seriously though I do wish more people would just be willing to do it. I think around here the biggest problem is there are so many unsafe drivers and they all think they are the "normal" drivers. None of them will let you maintain the safe distances. If you do, they cut you off purposely to "teach you a lesson" while they glare at you on the way by. Today was perfect example. Light rain, really dangerous because traffic was moving pretty fast. Trying to just chill and keep more distance due to the rain factor but just one after another speeds up and cuts in...time and time again. All you can do is keep backing off and hope they do not cut in at that moment when it all falls apart and you become the middle of a freeway sandwich.

 

[cwerdna]

To follow up further w/jcaspar's Prius slamming...

Never had any brake recalls on my 06. As for the 1st recall of "242,000 Prius and Lexus hybrids", that affected only 87K Priuses (out of 91K vehicles in North America). More info at New GenIII brake recall affects 87,000 cars | Page 2 | PriusChat. Around that that time Toyota passed the 3 million mark of Priuses sold worldwide (Toyota sells 3-millionth Prius - Autoblog).

As for your 2nd recall of "437K" vehicles, it was relatively minor issue fixed by updated firmware. See Prius Brake Recall – A Little More Information | PriusChat and Toyota Announces Voluntary Recall on 2010 MY Prius | PriusChat.

Around the same time as that 2010 Prius brake recall, Ford issues prompt fix for Fusion Hybrid brakes happened, which is WAY more serious, yet there was no recall. It was just an update they labeled as a "Customer Satisfaction Program".

Hybrids generally have brakes that feel a little "funny" to those who haven't driven cars w/regen before. But, that has little to no bearing on emergency stops where feel is irrelevant and you're trying to come to a stop ASAP.

For the 242K unit one, per Toyota recalls 242,000 Prius, Lexus hybrid cars - Yahoo News and http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/05/us-toyota-recall-idUSBRE95406D20130605

It said there were no accidents or injuries caused by the problem so far, but the company has received dozens of complaints.

adding that no accidents, injuries or deaths have been reported as a result of the defect.

More info at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?searchType=ID&targetCategory=R&searchCriteria.nhtsa_ids=13V235000

For the 2nd one that was a totally minor issue, per Prius Brake Recall – A Little More Information | PriusChat

Q7. Can you tell us the number of complaints, accidents, or incidents in the US?
A7. NHTSA has recorded over 125 complaints.

Toyota Recalls 437,000 Prius, Hybrids Globally | Fox News says

The problem is suspected in four crashes resulting in two minor injuries, according to data gathered by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which is investigating the matter. Toyota says it's cooperating with NHTSA's investigation.

Notice, NHTSA and complaints to NHTSA? Also, look at these relatively small percentages vs. units in the field.