Ideas To Help Prevent Auto Pilot Accidents...It's Time To Get Real

[TaoJones]

I absolutely reject #2. Driver Assist features and particularly TACC have utility on any marked road.

Better training is always welcome. An online learning series with certification (similar to the driver ed courses online with a cute little very at the end) is not too much to ask.

Frankly, I’d rather see mandatory driver education certification for EVERY driver EVERY time they buy a vehicle. Doesn’t have to be long - 15 minutes would be enough to reinforce the point that distracted driving is almost 100% preventable.

Then again, I think most people should have to pass a licensing test to be parents, so there’s that.

Focusing upon driver assist features, and in particular upon Tesla’s AP features, is a tad myopic in my view.

However a second time, every little bit helps and if framed properly, training and education could go a long way. For those averse to online training (and yet buying a Tesla), create a revenue stream with fee-based 1:1 tutelage.

 

[Aieukl378]

Well, years ago, after the Josh Brown crash, Tesla said they were going to post some "how to use AP" videos on their website, just like the videos for all the other features of the car. (I watched every single one of those videos before picking up my S).

Those AP videos still don't exist. So if Tesla doesn't have a sense of urgency about even basic training on AP, I don't know how we can solve this problem.

Well, years ago, after the Josh Brown crash, Tesla said they were going to post some "how to use AP" videos on their website, just like the videos for all the other features of the car. (I watched every single one of those videos before picking up my S).

Those AP videos still don't exist. So if Tesla doesn't have a sense of urgency about even basic training on AP, I don't know how we can solve this problem.

I'm assuming they haven't produced a tutorial video due to the dynamic nature of AP(AP1 vs. AP2, OTA updates, works different depending on what road you travel etc. etc.) but you're right...there should be something at this point.

 

[jorobsand]

I do not understand those who support certification for use of AP. IT ALREADY EXISTS! It's called a driver's license. Yes, I understand that a license is not specific to the technology/capability of any one vehicle, but it does require that a driver know/understand/demonstrate the fundamentals of safe driving which include paying attention and remaining distraction-free at all times!

You don't see a certification required for use of cruise control, yet it can lead to the same type of accidents/fatalities if not properly used. Where would you draw the line? Should certification be specifically required for use of TACC? What about cars with any type of cruise control?

I think the limit of what can/should be certified is the appropriate attention to driver awareness and safety. Anything beyond that is too much overreach if you ask me.

 

[Az_Rael]

You don't see a certification required for use of cruise control, yet it can lead to the same type of accidents/fatalities if not properly used.

I am sure drivers ed courses will eventually incorporate these new technologies. My drivers ed class way back when covered cruise control and the safe use of it.

 

[Uncle Paul]

When I am on autopilot I react like when my G/F is driving my Tesla. I become super aware of how it is coping with traffic and the road. I understand that this is still a beta and am not willing to bet my life on it doing every thing perfect all the time.

Treat it like a driver aid, like a smarter and more aware cruise control with lane keeping. Understand that it has limitiations that I am yet unaware. Keep your own situational awareness and be ready and able to take over at the slightest indication that your control is necessary.

I still find it the best thing since sliced bread. It is very aware and has great capabilities, however I am still not comfortable relinquishing all control to it.

 

[.jg.]

I'm with jorobsand on this: the driver is the one with a driver's license and it it the driver's responsibility to be in control of the car at all times. It is the same with people who blindly follow erroneous sat nav directions and drive their cars into farmer's fields, lakes, etc. Just like the sat nav, autopilot is not sentient and has no driver's license.
A driver using autopilot is a bit like the captain of a ship, with a really stupid new recruit at the helm, who must be supervised at all times. If the ship hits anything, it is the captain's fault.

In addition to all the above, autopilot is in Beta - it isn't even finished, it is a work in progress.
For people who ignore the messages that autopilot is in Beta and that they must keep their hands on the wheel, I really don't see what can be done, other than revoking their driving licenses.

 

[bmah]

I do not understand those who support certification for use of AP. IT ALREADY EXISTS! It's called a driver's license. Yes, I understand that a license is not specific to the technology/capability of any one vehicle, but it does require that a driver know/understand/demonstrate the fundamentals of safe driving which include paying attention and remaining distraction-free at all times!

xkcd: Driving Cars

Bruce.

 

[buttershrimp]

I'm with jorobsand on this: the driver is the one with a driver's license and it it the driver's responsibility to be in control of the car at all times. It is the same with people who blindly follow erroneous sat nav directions and drive their cars into farmer's fields, lakes, etc. Just like the sat nav, autopilot is not sentient and has no driver's license.
A driver using autopilot is a bit like the captain of a ship, with a really stupid new recruit at the helm, who must be supervised at all times. If the ship hits anything, it is the captain's fault.

In addition to all the above, autopilot is in Beta - it isn't even finished, it is a work in progress.
For people who ignore the messages that autopilot is in Beta and that they must keep their hands on the wheel, I really don't see what can be done, other than revoking their driving licenses.

I find it interesting how Tesla can simultaneously put me in the safest car on the road, but then elevate my risk by making me want to drive it 10x as far... 10x as often. I averaged 2500 miles per year prior to getting my Tesla, now I am averaging 25,000 a year !

 

[Eclectic]

I don't think autopilot is a problem. Before there was the Model S with AP1 I was still having to deal with bad and inattentive drivers. If the goal is to make the roads safer, this is not a Tesla issue.

First, make the test to get a driver's license MUCH more difficult and require an in-the-car test every other year.

Second, have all phones lose their data connectivity once the car is in motion. Yeah, you won't have maps anymore, but we got along fine without phone maps for a very long time.

You do those two things and you will have MUCH safer roads and no one will have to give up truly useful technology because a few boneheads misused it.

 

[MrAustraliaTax]

Before AutoPilot is activated:

Mandatory crash videos of actual AutoPilot crashes must be watched in full.
Not text. Not still pictures. Not slickly produced videos. Real Dashcam footage of actual accidents.

By *far* the best teaching resource for AutoPilot is the many videos here on TMC showing AutoPilot fails.

 

[barjohn]

As we all know, Autopilot is constantly changing in functionality and capabilities within a broader function. The problem from a user perspective is that Tesla does not inform us about the changes they have made and leave it for us to discover on our own with a high degree of probability that what we discover or learn is incorrect. Hence some of the hair brain videos of people trying to prove that AP can do something it could not do before (in their opinion). Tesla should list the capabilities and functionality in each release or state no changes if none have been made. Equally important is to report known issues or anomalies. For example, all of us have learned that AP may phantom brake for overpasses but not always. New drivers of a Tesla probably don't know this. AP will phantom brake for unknown reasons too. It is important to make sure no one is tailgating you incase AP should phantom brake suddenly. If you can't get them off your bumper than disengage AP. Most of us have learned that AP cannot handle curves that are too sharp at higher speeds but no where is that information published for new drivers. AP has difficulty with exits and lane splits, again not published. AP can't recognize ANY signs or traffic lights. AP can't recognize a stopped vehicle or other barrier in your drive path. AP can't see pedestrians or bicyclists. AP can't detect cross traffic in front or behind you. AP has very limited blindspot detection. You can't expect people to not do stupid things if the capabilities of the system are left to their imaginations after seeing the marketing material or listening to the exaggerated ravings of an owner. Having to learn these failings the hard way is not the best way to teach the user to be responsible. Tesla needs to be responsible too. Tesla could add a learn mode where it displays what it thinks is a sign and its meaning (stop, Speed Limit and value, yield, etc.) and the driver give it a thumbs up or down via left or right push of the right scroll wheel. Eventually, with thousands of drivers it learns what these things look like and what they mean. Same for stop lights, and other objects. A neural network with no feedback loop is not going to learn a lot. Maybe that is why two years later it still can't recognize a stop sign (something red with an octagon shape). Any videos by Tesla on their web site showing anything other than current capability and functionality should be clearly labeled as FUTURE CONCEPT. Don't mislead people into thinking that is current capability. Non-technical people can easily be led to believe that it is a real capability today.

 

[buttershrimp]

Before AutoPilot is activated:

Mandatory crash videos of actual AutoPilot crashes must be watched in full.
Not text. Not still pictures. Not slickly produced videos. Real Dashcam footage of actual accidents.

By *far* the best teaching resource for AutoPilot is the many videos here on TMC showing AutoPilot fails.

Mmmmm indeed, good idea..... However, might I add that ALL of these videos must also be paired with hardcore rap music?

I mean.... otherwise, what's the point?

 

[malcolm]

Before AutoPilot is activated:

Mandatory crash videos of actual AutoPilot crashes must be watched in full.
Not text. Not still pictures. Not slickly produced videos. Real Dashcam footage of actual accidents.

By *far* the best teaching resource for AutoPilot is the many videos here on TMC showing AutoPilot fails.

LOL. Like that scene in Airplane, where the in-flight movie shows a plane crash.

 

[malcolm]

The other problem is that owners also assume too much of AEB:

If driving 29 mph (46 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h).

Page 93 (as printed on the page) here: Tesla

 

[davidc18]

AutoPilot was always a bad name but it drove headlines and sales (mine included).

 

[Aieukl378]

I absolutely reject #2. Driver Assist features and particularly TACC have utility on any marked road.

Better training is always welcome. An online learning series with certification (similar to the driver ed courses online with a cute little very at the end) is not too much to ask.

Frankly, I’d rather see mandatory driver education certification for EVERY driver EVERY time they buy a vehicle. Doesn’t have to be long - 15 minutes would be enough to reinforce the point that distracted driving is almost 100% preventable.

Then again, I think most people should have to pass a licensing test to be parents, so there’s that.

Focusing upon driver assist features, and in particular upon Tesla’s AP features, is a tad myopic in my view.

However a second time, every little bit helps and if framed properly, training and education could go a long way. For those averse to online training (and yet buying a Tesla), create a revenue stream with fee-based 1:1 tutelage.

I should have specified disable "Autosteer" on secondary roads. TACC is pretty terrific under all conditions.

I like the certification idea but it could be really informal. For instance, AP won't be activated on your car unless you prove your understanding of what AP is and isn't capable of. This wouldn't be state mandated or anything(you wouldn't need to get a license) simply Tesla making sure all AP drivers understand it's capabilities. Again, in it's simplest form it could be incorporated into software in your car. When you activate AP you get a quick dos and don't of AP(this could be a 5 min clip or like a video game tutorial where you're walked through the basics and play through a training level) then a small quiz to show you viewed the training. Once this is complete your AP is activated. As new features/OTA updates roll in the training could be tweaked as part of the update.

 

[cmaster]

Agreed. Ideas, yes, we all have them.

Following those Ideas like a robot. Well, humans are not robots.

You cant stop stupid.
Crash in Fort lauderdale, kid got ticket for 112mph on 3 march. Still driving like that
Crash in Florida last year, man asleep at the wheel
Crash by the factory, told friends AP didnt work week before, so he drives with it on while on hwy101, crashes into barrier.
Crash in Utah, idiot was asleep hits stopped fire truck.
You cant stop stupid.

 

[jlewisthe3rd]

I do not understand those who support certification for use of AP. IT ALREADY EXISTS! It's called a driver's license. Yes, I understand that a license is not specific to the technology/capability of any one vehicle, but it does require that a driver know/understand/demonstrate the fundamentals of safe driving which include paying attention and remaining distraction-free at all times!

You don't see a certification required for use of cruise control, yet it can lead to the same type of accidents/fatalities if not properly used. Where would you draw the line? Should certification be specifically required for use of TACC? What about cars with any type of cruise control?

I think the limit of what can/should be certified is the appropriate attention to driver awareness and safety. Anything beyond that is too much overreach if you ask me.

I'm with jorobsand on this: the driver is the one with a driver's license and it it the driver's responsibility to be in control of the car at all times. It is the same with people who blindly follow erroneous sat nav directions and drive their cars into farmer's fields, lakes, etc. Just like the sat nav, autopilot is not sentient and has no driver's license.
A driver using autopilot is a bit like the captain of a ship, with a really stupid new recruit at the helm, who must be supervised at all times. If the ship hits anything, it is the captain's fault.

In addition to all the above, autopilot is in Beta - it isn't even finished, it is a work in progress.
For people who ignore the messages that autopilot is in Beta and that they must keep their hands on the wheel, I really don't see what can be done, other than revoking their driving licenses.

I think both of you are thinking rationally as if every driver will be...that for certain is not the case. Both Tesla's as an EV and as pioneer in brining level 2/3 autonomous driver assistance features to market, definitely has a learning curve for a LOT of drivers. For those coming from luxury cars or sports cars perhaps they are more prepared to operate the car and semi-autonomous features. However, those coming from economy or lesser vehicles there is definitely a learning curve of responsibility especially with the size, weight and instant torque of the car. Add to that a semi-autonomous feature that by name of "Autopilot" incites drivers to let it "drive by itself", and then you have accidents, "unintentional acceleration", and autopilot misuse....MOST of which could be resolved with proper training.

There are nuances to using AP, occasions when to use it and when not to...dealing with truck lust, anticipating when the car will take off ramp when it shouldnt, etc. These are the things that need to be learned and most of us know through experience but Tesla can mitigate risk by teaching this up front.

 

[.jg.]

I think both of you are thinking rationally as if every driver will be...that for certain is not the case.

Maybe - but it is a legal requirement on all drivers. What needs to be made clear to all drivers is that autopilot, traffic aware cruise control, satellite navigation systems, etc. are only aids and that responsibility for what happens when they are driving always rests with them. I know it is popular for people to try to offload their responsibility whenever they do something stupid ("I didn't know this hot coffee was hot" or "I didn't know this sharp knife would cut me") but whenever somebody abdicates their responsibility as a driver, they should have a year of walking and Uber, to help remind them of the conditions of holding a drivers license.

 

[Zaphod]

You can always try to make things idiot proof, but you end up always finding a better idiot.