IRS weighs in on tax rebate, mostly bad news for Model Y

[Snow Drift]

Oddly enough it appears Jalopnik of all places provides the explanation for whats considered an SUV (although it seems some of you already figured it out): Every Car Looks Like This Thanks to a Gigantic Regulatory Loophole

View attachment 891056

That is really interesting and a great article. I hope they follow up in relation to the EV credit topic.

I am clearly wrong about my interpretation, but it seems like I am right about the original intent. Just not the current use:

“But the reason why every automaker is obsessed with creating SUVs and crossovers, and why all those vehicles end up looking largely similar, is down to a vehicular distinction written nearly 60 years ago to separate farm trucks and buses from family sedans.”

So at one point, NPV was for big old vehicles that aren’t meant for driving to grandma’s house.

 

[Snow Drift]

^^ Is "AWD" equivalent to "4WD" ?

It is not outside of this conversation. In this context it seems to be equivalent. In reality they are different like a square and a rectangle. Similar but different.

 

[randmness]

^^ Is "AWD" equivalent to "4WD" ?

I believe so.

Like others have mentioned, the 7 seater Y is likely falling under the van category. I believe the NHTSA classifies any vehicle that seats more than 5, but less than 10 as a MPV; the same classification that minivans fall into. It didnt dawn on me until recently how similar the 7 seater is to say a Mazda 5 (also a MPV vehicle.) The height and length dimensions are very similar; the Mazda 5 didnt have AWD though.

 

[SageBrush]

In this context it seems to be equivalent

I believe so.

I cannot remember details, but Toyota added a functionally puny "AWD" to some of its *EV vehicles by adding a ~ 10 kW (if memory serves) mini-motor to the rear axle. It would amuse me if that also checked the box of "4WD"

 

[Snow Drift]

I cannot remember details, but Toyota added a functionally puny "AWD" to some of its *EV vehicles by adding a ~ 10 kW (if memory serves) mini-motor to the rear axle. It would amuse me if that also checked the box of "4WD"

PHEV and hybrid, but yea. Front axle is propelled (engine) and rear axle is propelled (eMotor). So yes, it has through-the-road AWD.

I’m a Subaru purist so Toyota’s method isn’t my favorite, but the RAV4 Prime is a great vehicle.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

2023 Owner's manual says 6"

VW Digital Owners Manual

api.ownersmanualvw.com

Use this VIN 1V2GNPE85PC003202 (2023 ID.4 AWD Pro S)

Search "Dimensions"


**Happy New Year**

In Europe the ID.4 AWD has active suspension which allows the ride height to be increased to 8 1/4".

It's conceivable that they'll add it to the US-built model if that's necessary. But all of their ID.4 models start at under $55,500 at the moment.

 

[SageBrush]

RAV4 Prime is a great vehicle.

<<shrug>> I doubt I could ever convince myself to buy ICE again. Will the Rav4 Prime be eligible for the $7,500 tax credit ? The link in the OP says that Toyota has not submitted any vehicles.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

PHEV and hybrid, but yea. Front axle is propelled (engine) and rear axle is propelled (eMotor). So yes, it has through-the-road AWD.

I’m a Subaru purist so Toyota’s method isn’t my favorite, but the RAV4 Prime is a great vehicle.

I've driven a RAV4 Prime on a relatively short drive (a friend has one), and it had easy electric power, as well as being comfortable and having a decent amount of space (for which we'd have a particular use). I'm considering it for a PHEV replacement (my Volt will be 10 in late 2023), but I have a few concerns with it [2023 Prius Prime notes]:

(1) Rated EV efficiency is only 3mi/kWh, which sucks. [2023 Prius Prime will have 36 or 37 miles EPA, and should still be about 4mi/kWh. Also much more motor power than the current model so EV 0-60 may be sufficient with the new model.]

(2) Charge port is on the rear right. [Prius Prime the same] That's inherently less convenient for us than driver's side, and since it's a PHEV that would be plugged in every day that it's used, it could be especially irksome. But, since the PHEV is parked on the right side of the garage, maybe not a big deal. However, we use an existing circuit and socket at the back of the garage for our current PHEV (Volt, port front left fender) and I suspect that even the 25' cable on my Clipper Creek wouldn't reach a rear-right port and that could require rewiring.

(3) Adaptive cruise control will cause it to cycle the engine if you drive on a steep downslope. It's not that it needs fuel as it spins the engine without fuel for engine braking, but the fact that it is spinning the engine causes it at least to run the warmup cycle. We currently have 2 cars with strong regen (Kona and Volt) that allow dumb cruise work really well on downslopes, so I can drive in cruise a lot of the time with little need to touch the brake, and I'd be disappointed to lose that.

<<shrug>> I doubt I could ever convince myself to buy ICE again. Will the Rav4 Prime be eligible for the $7,500 tax credit ? The link in the OP says that Toyota has not submitted any vehicles.

Made In Japan, so maybe only commercial credits available.

 

[SageBrush]

(2) Charge port is on the rear right. [Prius Prime the same] That's inherently less convenient for us than driver's side, and since it's a PHEV that would be plugged in every day that it's used, it could be especially irksome. But, since the PHEV is parked on the right side of the garage, maybe not a big deal. However, we use an existing circuit and socket at the back of the garage for our current PHEV (Volt, port front left fender) and I suspect that even the 25' cable on my Clipper Creek wouldn't reach a rear-right port and that could require rewiring.

I've thought quite a bit about how to make it convenient to own and operate 2 EVs in our household since our prior experience became a chore with only one EVSE. Chore, as in move one EV out of the way so the second one can charge. I can easily put 2 EVSEs on our home wall but 1, it would look ugly; and 2, the distance to the second car port would be a challenge. Better would be to put in a charging post easily accessible to each EV with power sharing between two cables. The main thing holding me back there is having to trench and worry that I will harm the nearby tree's roots.

Which brings me around to the Rav Prime: Unless it is super convenient, I worry that my wife would not bother to plug-in.

 

[Yelobird]

I've thought quite a bit about how to make it convenient to own and operate 2 EVs in our household since our prior experience became a chore with only one EVSE. Chore, as in move one EV out of the way so the second one can charge. I can easily put 2 EVSEs on our home wall but 1, it would look ugly; and 2, the distance to the second car port would be a challenge. Better would be to put in a charging post easily accessible to each EV with power sharing between two cables. The main thing holding me back there is having to trench and worry that I will harm the nearby tree's roots.

Which brings me around to the Rav Prime: Unless it is super convenient, I worry that my wife would not bother to plug-in.

She would Learn to plug it in after her first drive with no range….lol

 

[SageBrush]

She would Learn to plug it in after her first drive with no range

The RAV Prime also has an ICE

 

[Daekwan]

I would imagine most RAV4 Prime owners don't plug in. Or even have an L2 home charging solution. They bought it because it is truly the best of both worlds.. 40 MPG + its the most potent RAV4 ever made. And when I say potent, believe it's the second fastest vehicle Toyota currently sells (0-60 in 5.3 seconds).. only the Supra is faster. Has up to 600 miles of real-world range in between fill-ups. Can travel up to 41 miles in electric-only mode (avg US commute 27 miles). And of course a very proven & reliable Toyota hybrid powertrain.. and resale value.

Tested: 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime Is Quicker Than Supra 2.0

Toyota's plug-in RAV4 has 302 hp, can tow 2500 pounds, and will beat a four-cylinder Supra in a few acceleration tests.

www.caranddriver.com

It is an incredibly flexible vehicle. You could commute to work every day.. and almost never use gas. Or if driving long-distance alot.. you could drive further than any other pure EV or ICE. And it still would be significantly cheaper than Supercharging.. while getting significantly better MPG than other pure ICE.

 

[Whatstreet]

I would imagine most RAV4 Prime owners don't plug in. Or even have an L2 home charging solution. They bought it because it is truly the best of both worlds.. 40 MPG + its the most potent RAV4 ever made. And when I say potent, believe it's the second fastest vehicle Toyota currently sells (0-60 in 5.3 seconds).. only the Supra is faster. Has up to 600 miles of real-world range in between fill-ups. Can travel up to 41 miles in electric-only mode (avg US commute 27 miles). And of course a very proven & reliable Toyota hybrid powertrain.. and resale value.

Tested: 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime Is Quicker Than Supra 2.0

Toyota's plug-in RAV4 has 302 hp, can tow 2500 pounds, and will beat a four-cylinder Supra in a few acceleration tests.

www.caranddriver.com

It is an incredibly flexible vehicle. You could commute to work every day.. and almost never use gas. Or if driving long-distance alot.. you could drive further than any other pure EV or ICE. And it still would be significantly cheaper than Supercharging.. while getting significantly better MPG than other pure ICE.

There is a problem with the RAV4. It has limited availability. It's much easier to get a Tesla Model 3 or Tesla Model Y.

 

[Daekwan]

There is a problem with the RAV4. It has limited availability. It's much easier to get a Tesla Model 3 or Tesla Model Y.

And the price is ridiculous. Expect to spend about $50K. That said the hype is calming down and the 2023 Prius Prime seems to have the same powertrain pros.. with a much cheaper entry price and still is a hatchback.

 

[Hiline]

There is a problem with the RAV4. It has limited availability. It's much easier to get a Tesla Model 3 or Tesla Model Y.

A lot of people forget that so far Tesla is the only auto maker who has been able to scale EV production. I was in the market for an EV last year and Tesla was pretty much the only option. The market may be slightly different next year when GM and Ford strengthen their EV production while the non-US auto makers don't qualify for the tax credit, but I don't expect the real changes to come until 2024 when all major manufacturers except Toyota should be able to build EVs that qualify for the tax credit at scale.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I would imagine most RAV4 Prime owners don't plug in. Or even have an L2 home charging solution. They bought it because it is truly the best of both worlds.. 40 MPG + its the most potent RAV4 ever made. And when I say potent, believe it's the second fastest vehicle Toyota currently sells (0-60 in 5.3 seconds).. only the Supra is faster. Has up to 600 miles of real-world range in between fill-ups. Can travel up to 41 miles in electric-only mode (avg US commute 27 miles). And of course a very proven & reliable Toyota hybrid powertrain.. and resale value.

Tested: 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime Is Quicker Than Supra 2.0

Toyota's plug-in RAV4 has 302 hp, can tow 2500 pounds, and will beat a four-cylinder Supra in a few acceleration tests.

www.caranddriver.com

It is an incredibly flexible vehicle. You could commute to work every day.. and almost never use gas. Or if driving long-distance alot.. you could drive further than any other pure EV or ICE. And it still would be significantly cheaper than Supercharging.. while getting significantly better MPG than other pure ICE.

Based on my sample of knowing 1 RAV4 Prime owner, and meeting 1 other, I'd say that 100% of RAV4 Prime owners plug in.

RAV4 Prime is $11k more than the hybrid so if you're not going to plug, then performance is the only reason to buy it, and if you really care about performance, there's an abundance of choices out there.

You can charge it with a long overnight charge on 120V, and over 70% of new vehicle buyers have off-street parking. Torque News polled people on a forum, and 93% were plugging in.

 

[ucmndd]

^^ Is "AWD" equivalent to "4WD" ?

100% yes.

 

[randmness]

….non-US auto makers don't qualify for the tax credit….

Actually, Treasury guidance mentions foreign made vehicles may qualify when leased. Seems to be contested by some folks so I guess we’ll see what happens.

 

[SageBrush]

Actually, Treasury guidance mentions foreign made vehicles may qualify when leased. Seems to be contested by some folks so I guess we’ll see what happens.

Is this already in effect as of Jan 1 ?

 

[SageBrush]

I would imagine most RAV4 Prime owners don't plug in.

If true, then

It is an incredibly flexible vehicle. You could commute to work every day.. and almost never use gas. Or if driving long-distance alot.. you could drive further than any other pure EV or ICE. And it still would be significantly cheaper than Supercharging.. while getting significantly better MPG than other pure ICE.

does not follow. I owned the Prius Prime in 2017 and plugged in every day so that my 90 mile commute was improved by the small pack. I averaged 90 mpg. Since I also used the car to take 500 mile r/t drives 2 or 3 times a month, it was used exactly as you described. But then I swapped it for a Tesla, and the pure EV was much, much, much better in all respects. It comes down to this: so long as the EV covers the long trips (or you have some alternative arrangement), the PHEV is markedly inferior in real life. On paper, it shines.

^^ That Prius Prime year was while I worked, and drove a lot. Now I am quite satisfied with a mid-range EV only. We rent for the other occasions.