Hello, I recently put an order through for a MY and expecting delivery this week. Unfortunately I've only learned about this change post deposit and to me feels pretty big, I live in a winter climate so know the cameras will get covered with road gunk during melt periods, and I assume short of getting out and cleaning (constantly), the autopilot and subsequent parking abilities will be severely hindered if not unusable with the Tesla Vision system. Hoping to get some input/feedback while I can still cancel, and lose $250 vs $80k
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Is hope in sight for our USS-less cars?
- Thread starter glovelace
- Start date
Don't overthink it. The USS get covered with grime as well, and certainly wouldn't work when caked with snow. They aren't used for anything but parking and other low-speed, close-quarters maneuvers, anyways - nothing Autopilot related.
So far I'm pleased with the alerts my wife's new Y has with vision-only parking alerts, though admittedly the functionality is not quite on par with that of my 2018 Model 3. I am confident that it'll get there.
Autopilot has been cameras-only on all software versions since sometime last year. I genuinely feel that my car behaves better now with Tesla Vision than it did with radar for four years.
I have radar on my ICE 2nd car. It does an amazing job at 'seeing' objects in rain storms where cameras are blind. At some point both system become unusable if weather or road mess covers it, however USS seldom gets covered since they are verticle on bumpers. If you're mud bogging maybe, otherwise it seldom happens. Cameras are FAR more likely to have the lenses blocked.
Question- Why would Tesla remove helpful redundancy? Isn't this a strength of any safety or recognition system? I don't see vision as better. I see it as a cost saving measure. Did anyone really believe removing USS from the front of the car where no camera exists was a good idea? No decent engineer would say so. TBH a camera on the front of the car will probably be the first one to get the lense dirty, so USS is a no brainer here or redundancy of both systems. Tesla saved about 150.00 per car and maybe some additional programing trouble to piss off many of their new customers. They can't back out of this one. What we are left with is a system with often inaccurate mustard and catsup lines. Most reluctanly try to convince themselves the system is "good enough". Good enough for what?
My suggestion to Tesla would be not to look at safety and recognition systems when they are looking for ways to cut cost. Enough has already been trimmed. I would have paid a little more for USS. The safest car in the world??? How can this claim be made when the distance calculations are way off and little children can hide in front of the car and be invisible to the camera system?
Question- Why would Tesla remove helpful redundancy? Isn't this a strength of any safety or recognition system? I don't see vision as better. I see it as a cost saving measure. Did anyone really believe removing USS from the front of the car where no camera exists was a good idea? No decent engineer would say so. TBH a camera on the front of the car will probably be the first one to get the lense dirty, so USS is a no brainer here or redundancy of both systems. Tesla saved about 150.00 per car and maybe some additional programing trouble to piss off many of their new customers. They can't back out of this one. What we are left with is a system with often inaccurate mustard and catsup lines. Most reluctanly try to convince themselves the system is "good enough". Good enough for what?
My suggestion to Tesla would be not to look at safety and recognition systems when they are looking for ways to cut cost. Enough has already been trimmed. I would have paid a little more for USS. The safest car in the world??? How can this claim be made when the distance calculations are way off and little children can hide in front of the car and be invisible to the camera system?
What did you end up doing? I am in the same boat and I am thinking about cancelling my order! Delivery in 3-4 days.
Lot of us in same boat. I would (unfortunately) still go for it (overall the features in the car make it much safer car compared to alternatives, plus great Tesla community). I’ll still feel obnoxious that decision makers at Tesla made such a bad decision (what else can they get wrong in future?) - at minimum I’d expect Tesla acknowledge and address this issue via either upgrade option, or promoting after market upgrade with software support option. I don’t think safety should be compromised for even 1 bad incident when we can avoid that. Even if USS is not useful (per Elon) for Autopilot, for parking and “close shave” manoeuvers - they should provide it.
I went forward with my purchase but am still missing the Tesla Vision parking assist stuff which the Tesla advisor/tech said I should have it and not sure why I don’t, I’ve read on Reddit that doing a factory reset might enable it but I haven’t gotten around to it
If I could rewind 2 weeks and stuck to my gut about cancelling I’d feel better right now than I do. It’s not the missing USS or Tesla Vision but the entire experience has put me off Tesla.
My only advice, if your gut says to cancel then listen to it. I have a motto, ‘if in doubt, don't’. And I ignored it
Yet they are addressing it via software update and it appears to work very well. How this is a compromise to safety seems a bit hyperbole personally. It’s used to slow drive park Not autopilot. They didn’t remove the headlights they removed a parking assist function that few (myself included) ever use. Many over think this simple change as “change must be bad”.
I differ with your view of hyperbole and “not removed headlights”. This forum is full of concerned Tesla owners/would be owners and some with long driving experience (to even drive without any sensors not just USS) who seem concerned. No smoke without fire.
If “it’s not headlights” but just “assist” for “slow parking” - and if the number of incidents with front/front bumper scrape and damage goes up (Tesla can may be easily gather these incidents given the tech) without USS.. and critically while software is being “updated”, it is a problem. Most importantly, older drivers, or new learners without significant driving history that do rely on these in very tight, dark places could cause human harm which is terrible. It’s one thing to not have a feature ever, but totally another to having mash up of error prone feature that is being “updated”. It’s not the change itself (arguable, may be it’s better) but how they do the change for folks who are using this car on daily basis.
This is just like the fiasco of them removing radar from the cars in 2021. They yanked it without having a viable solution in place. Then we got TeslaVision. It was still a POS for the longest time. I'll still take my old car with radar enabled than the new TV version without radar.
If I were on the fence about this, I'd hold off my order to see how this plays out before I took delivery of the car. Who knows how long it will take to get it right, if ever. My wife parks our threw in a garage that is like a labyrinth every day at work. I can only imagine how our 3 would look while Tesla gets their shite together if she had a car relying on Tesla vision.
I just want to replay the bullshite that Tesla fed us all when they yanked radar in 2021. TV is the way to go. You don't need radar. Yada, yada, yada. Fast forward 2 years, and guess what, apparently Tesla plans to use radar with HW4. Amazing how radar was worthless, just extra input noise, etc. etc. Now they feed us cow pies, put a candle on it and try to tell us its our birthday.
One thing I've learned about Tesla with the last 4 cars I've owned is to be skeptical as hell. Only buy on what you know is shipping and have a chance to test it before buying. Don't make a single decision on their lies and don't believe a single thing a Tesla sales weasel tells you without coming here, or some other forum and run it past the BS detector of one of the forum members here. We may have different opinions about how useful things are but I think there is a great group of people who can help sniff out the manure they are shoveling your way and calling oats.
If I were on the fence about this, I'd hold off my order to see how this plays out before I took delivery of the car. Who knows how long it will take to get it right, if ever. My wife parks our threw in a garage that is like a labyrinth every day at work. I can only imagine how our 3 would look while Tesla gets their shite together if she had a car relying on Tesla vision.
I just want to replay the bullshite that Tesla fed us all when they yanked radar in 2021. TV is the way to go. You don't need radar. Yada, yada, yada. Fast forward 2 years, and guess what, apparently Tesla plans to use radar with HW4. Amazing how radar was worthless, just extra input noise, etc. etc. Now they feed us cow pies, put a candle on it and try to tell us its our birthday.
One thing I've learned about Tesla with the last 4 cars I've owned is to be skeptical as hell. Only buy on what you know is shipping and have a chance to test it before buying. Don't make a single decision on their lies and don't believe a single thing a Tesla sales weasel tells you without coming here, or some other forum and run it past the BS detector of one of the forum members here. We may have different opinions about how useful things are but I think there is a great group of people who can help sniff out the manure they are shoveling your way and calling oats.
I wonder, if they put the high def radar on HW4 in the future and enable it.
1. Is it likely that they will re-enable the "old" radars on the cars made before they decided to remove them.
2. Is it likely that they will retrofit the old style radar to cars made without it, maybe for people who buys FSD
3. Is it likely that they will be able to retrofit the HD radar, and integrate it with HW3, i would imagine all of the actual processing of what the radar "sees" goes on inside of the radar module, and only the "result" is transmitted to the computers in the car.
I dont care about USS, but the radar is something that i miss, here we sometimes have heavy fog, and in this case, the radar would be a big improvement over Vision, as Vision can see through fog, just as badly as i can, while Radar can penetrate fog.
1. Is it likely that they will re-enable the "old" radars on the cars made before they decided to remove them.
2. Is it likely that they will retrofit the old style radar to cars made without it, maybe for people who buys FSD
3. Is it likely that they will be able to retrofit the HD radar, and integrate it with HW3, i would imagine all of the actual processing of what the radar "sees" goes on inside of the radar module, and only the "result" is transmitted to the computers in the car.
I dont care about USS, but the radar is something that i miss, here we sometimes have heavy fog, and in this case, the radar would be a big improvement over Vision, as Vision can see through fog, just as badly as i can, while Radar can penetrate fog.
This is my third time considering purchasing a Tesla in so many years. Previously, I literally was at the inspection phase and walked away because the vehicle had outrageous and functional panel issues (alignments so bad door wouldn't close) and paint defects galore and I was told "no adjustments - this passed inspection."
I test drove a Model Y LR and was pleasantly surprised at how far Tesla has come on build quality. The tester, and several cars I looked at in the lot, looked fantastic. But even on the test drive, the lack of USS was obvious as I the vision based parking assist was atrociously bad.
USS and Radar are absolute necessities even if they aren't the star of the show for redundancy. No system that is dealing with such a complex environment such as the case when you are driving in varying conditions can have zero redundancies when one system fails.
Tesla has been slashing prices across the board by up to $10K or more. How expensive would it be to add back in USS and radar??? Is the chip shortage, still a shortage?
This was an obvious play to not only control costs but to control supply chain because they aren't held hostage by shortages in the future. I understand the logic, but we have enough data at this point to show that it was a mistake from a safety issue.
I'm now moving on (even though the MY is great in so many other regards) because of the lack of these systems. I hope EM comes to his senses and reverses course.
I test drove a Model Y LR and was pleasantly surprised at how far Tesla has come on build quality. The tester, and several cars I looked at in the lot, looked fantastic. But even on the test drive, the lack of USS was obvious as I the vision based parking assist was atrociously bad.
USS and Radar are absolute necessities even if they aren't the star of the show for redundancy. No system that is dealing with such a complex environment such as the case when you are driving in varying conditions can have zero redundancies when one system fails.
Tesla has been slashing prices across the board by up to $10K or more. How expensive would it be to add back in USS and radar??? Is the chip shortage, still a shortage?
This was an obvious play to not only control costs but to control supply chain because they aren't held hostage by shortages in the future. I understand the logic, but we have enough data at this point to show that it was a mistake from a safety issue.
I'm now moving on (even though the MY is great in so many other regards) because of the lack of these systems. I hope EM comes to his senses and reverses course.
Tesla is in a race to the bottom to produce the cars as cheaply as possible. Whatever "mystique" Tesla had will soon be gone. I think they are betting the farm on FSD.
If FSD actually mattered to me, I might care about HW4. As it is, I am holding on to my 2022 Plaid with USS and wish they hadn't disabled its radar. For me, that was "peak" S. I use USS every day and I'd almost never use FSD. If they had kept USS in conjunction with HW4, I'd have bought a 2023 model Plaid instead of a 2022.
I don't see how they can overcome the HW limitations of lack of USS totally with SW enhancements to HW4. The lower location of the USS sensors lined up nicely to detect most obstacles. They have been very accurate for me. They have limitations but they are pretty easy to work around.
If FSD actually mattered to me, I might care about HW4. As it is, I am holding on to my 2022 Plaid with USS and wish they hadn't disabled its radar. For me, that was "peak" S. I use USS every day and I'd almost never use FSD. If they had kept USS in conjunction with HW4, I'd have bought a 2023 model Plaid instead of a 2022.
I don't see how they can overcome the HW limitations of lack of USS totally with SW enhancements to HW4. The lower location of the USS sensors lined up nicely to detect most obstacles. They have been very accurate for me. They have limitations but they are pretty easy to work around.
Tam
Well-Known Member
I planned to buy a Tesla car forever until they took away radar and USS. Since then, I have switched to brands that have at least radar and USS.
Tesla is going to have a mess on their hands with all of the different variations of their cars if they do choose to re-introduce Radar (which they clearly are) and USS. The common buyer will have no idea that their car lacks these features when older models have these features. I need a new car now to replace my 3 w/ FSD and I want to buy the Y. Without radar and USS and stripped down HW4, it seems like a poor decision. I am tempted to wait a year and switch to a competitor.
Tesla is hurting its brand with these decisions. However, Tesla might not care long term because they will be a Energy company who also happens to sell cheap cars.
Tesla is hurting its brand with these decisions. However, Tesla might not care long term because they will be a Energy company who also happens to sell cheap cars.
Without the needed focus on making the best cars in the world, they’ll be out of the game, even with their Supercharging network where other EV makers seem to hit the wall. There are too many carmakers who are eager to get a piece of EV pie! All over the globe. Tesla cannot have car making as it’s secondary business. In the same vein, Elon cannot be all over the place. There is only so much time and energy in humans and decision making gets affected. May be - just may be - the stupid looking decisions like removal of USS, or radar and selling cars without Park Assist or other more so basic features taken away with buggy software - may be all these coincide with Elon and his X escapades. Maybe he thinks they have too much of a lead and lack of charging network will prove crippling to other EV makers.
I really hope Tesla does not lose this race. That will be sad.
Well... they opened their major competitive advantage to their competitors; the supercharging network. That was one of the main reasons I bought a Tesla in the first place for the SC network.
Yeah - have been following that with interest. I’m curious what their rates would be .. 60-70c per kw for other EV users? I think it’s less practical but more for show (really depends on the rates they charge compared to Tesla owners? Heard somewhere there would be a fee too in addition)
I’m skeptical of SC network as such. Compared to 2018 and now - rate seems to have gone up significantly. Its like jacking up gas rates for ICE owners. Just that Tesla directly gets the profit. They could jack up the SC rates if selling new car business slows down. Also other EV makers would want common shared SC network rather than having to rely on Tesla. Say if Tesla keeps the same rate for other EV makers at SC - that would be quite bad for existing Tesla owners who would have longer wait times for this shared resource hurting Tesla new car sales. On the other hand, jacking up the rates to discourage other EV owners at Tesla SC would still not work for non-Tesla EV makers.
I think the question is what does Tesla charge for non-Tesla as companies like Electrify America charge. If it is close to the same, I think they'll flock to SCs. They way they have jacked up the SC rates, last time I traveled over 1k miles, one way, I just said the hell with it and rented an ICE minivan. I think it cost me less for fuel than I would have spent for electrons. It was an efficient hybrid van.
The rental cost was pretty cheap at $35/day with my corporate rate. We had more room which was nice. I spent a fair amount on gas for a long trip but with my S, my greatest cost per mile isn't electrons, it is tire wear. Based on my last set of rear tires in the S, I actually saved money on this 5k mile trip by renting.
Here is an interesting article anyway for the using non-Teslas at SC and the cost and charging times.
www.consumerreports.org
The rental cost was pretty cheap at $35/day with my corporate rate. We had more room which was nice. I spent a fair amount on gas for a long trip but with my S, my greatest cost per mile isn't electrons, it is tire wear. Based on my last set of rear tires in the S, I actually saved money on this 5k mile trip by renting.
Here is an interesting article anyway for the using non-Teslas at SC and the cost and charging times.
How Well Do Tesla Superchargers Work for Non-Tesla EVs? - Consumer Reports
Tesla has made some of its Supercharger network accessible to non-Tesla Electric Vehicles. Consumer Reports auto experts tried it out with three non-Tesla EVs.
I can’t believe the amount do people convinced/believing in how Tesla is done and won’t survive or make it.
smogne41
Active Member
I think you have it backwards. For example things only really started to get better with the software AFTER Elon was fully distracted by Twitter. Look at all the nice UI things we have gotten (and gotten back) in the last ~8 months. V11 UI is finally starting to offer some improvements over what came before (V9 and to a lesser extent V10). Still ugly, but finally we are getting useful things added instead of contently loosing them. Elon's continued leadership with his hyperinflation on vision-only FSD (and his complete indifference or even outright hostility to humans operating the cars) is the largest danger to Tesla. If it ultimately fails as a car maker, this will be why.
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