Is hope in sight for our USS-less cars?

[X Fan]

I think the question is what does Tesla charge for non-Tesla as companies like Electrify America charge. If it is close to the same, I think they'll flock to SCs. They way they have jacked up the SC rates, last time I traveled over 1k miles, one way, I just said the hell with it and rented an ICE minivan. I think it cost me less for fuel than I would have spent for electrons. It was an efficient hybrid van.

The rental cost was pretty cheap at $35/day with my corporate rate. We had more room which was nice. I spent a fair amount on gas for a long trip but with my S, my greatest cost per mile isn't electrons, it is tire wear. Based on my last set of rear tires in the S, I actually saved money on this 5k mile trip by renting.

Here is an interesting article anyway for the using non-Teslas at SC and the cost and charging times.

How Well Do Tesla Superchargers Work for Non-Tesla EVs? - Consumer Reports

Tesla has made some of its Supercharger network accessible to non-Tesla Electric Vehicles. Consumer Reports auto experts tried it out with three non-Tesla EVs.

www.consumerreports.org

Very misleading article re charging rate. Unless I missed it at 4am in the morning but where did the author state what the current overall charge % was on those testers(Which as we know the rate on TeslaS slow down as you get “full”).

 

[DayTrippin]

He said the Kia capped at 40, EQE - 76. "We brought the EV6 because, like the Lucid, it uses a higher voltage electrical architecture that enables some of the fastest charging speeds available when connected to a 350kW charger (like those from Electrify America). But we saw a max of 40kW when connected to the Supercharger. The EQE, which charges at a similar voltage to a Tesla, reached a rate of 76kW. "

Lucid - "I was limited to 49kW on all charge attempts, both with and without preconditioning the battery,” Alex said. “I suspect this is a result of Lucid’s 900-volt charging system, which can only accept 50kW from older, legacy 400-volt charging networks."

 

[X Fan]

He said the Kia capped at 40, EQE - 76. "We brought the EV6 because, like the Lucid, it uses a higher voltage electrical architecture that enables some of the fastest charging speeds available when connected to a 350kW charger (like those from Electrify America). But we saw a max of 40kW when connected to the Supercharger. The EQE, which charges at a similar voltage to a Tesla, reached a rate of 76kW. "

Lucid - "I was limited to 49kW on all charge attempts, both with and without preconditioning the battery,” Alex said. “I suspect this is a result of Lucid’s 900-volt charging system, which can only accept 50kW from older, legacy 400-volt charging networks."

Meaningless: he needed to state what the % of his battery was when he commenced charging for each vehicle. You surely understand that there is a charging curve, don't you?

One pictorial illustrates what I mean.

 

[DayTrippin]

Wow! You really know how to win friends and influence people don't you? If you don't like the data don't use it. The data while isn't complete isn't meaningless. You can infer some things from it. If I know what the peak charging rate is, I can determine what the best case charging rate is currently.

I assumed it might have been a pretty linear charge curve since the cap is so low. All the cars support more than what they said they were taking, they could easily just stat at 49kW for the entire time they charged and the possibly taper off if they ran it all the way up to 100%. Take your charge curve graph above and draw a straight line from at the 50/76/whatever they listed for each car) kW level (after an initial ramp up) from 10% all the way until it starts to taper off at 85%.

Feel free to invest more time in this if you want. This is early and charging rates for other cars are irrelevant to me as I don't own one. Most likely this will be sorted out with SW changes if there is enough demand by the manufacturers and by Tesla if needed. Feel free to contact CR or run your own tests.

Without the entire charging curve it told me enough to know that if I didn't have a Tesla, and I wanted to use a Tesla SC, it wouldn't be my first choice if there was another company's L3 charger working in the area. It would be a backup for me as unlikely to support the speed of charging my car can but the reliability of SCs would be a big plus. Hence the reason it would be backup for me.

 

[BigDEV]

Without the needed focus on making the best cars in the world, they’ll be out of the game, even with their Supercharging network where other EV makers seem to hit the wall. There are too many carmakers who are eager to get a piece of EV pie! All over the globe. Tesla cannot have car making as it’s secondary business. In the same vein, Elon cannot be all over the place. There is only so much time and energy in humans and decision making gets affected. May be - just may be - the stupid looking decisions like removal of USS, or radar and selling cars without Park Assist or other more so basic features taken away with buggy software - may be all these coincide with Elon and his X escapades. Maybe he thinks they have too much of a lead and lack of charging network will prove crippling to other EV makers.
I really hope Tesla does not lose this race. That will be sad.

Honestly - and I say this with love, but Tesla needs to push Elon Musk out. He's got way too much on his plate, has been making *sugar* poor decisions left and right, and if Tesla wants to survive and compete, they have to change their philosophy.

Stripping USS and Radar has to be the dumbest, short sighted decisions that compromises safety. Look what Musk did at Twitter. If you disagree with him, you get fired. Nobody at Tesla is willing to stand up to him for fear of their career being ended.

This is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

 

[DayTrippin]

If they remove the radar in 2021 in sort of an orderly fashion, with at least the SW alternative fully baked, it wouldn't have been as bad. Instead it was like a knee jerk alternative to supply chain issues. Then to disable radar from the S and X was doubling down on a stupid decision. I get it from a code support issue but my car with radar performed better than my TV only version of the same car.

Removing USS was just as stupid, and as much, if not more, impactful to me. They are still behind their competitors who have 360 views and good parking sensors systems. Again they tried to do it with cameras which pretty much has been a failure so far.

USS wasn't the best parking sensor system but it at least it was usable, and mostly accurate in my experience. The TV version still has a long ways to go. Now if they do bring back radar to all the cars, and have better cameras up front, then the people who bought now are totally screwed if the new parts aren't retrofittable. They end up without USS and a very poor TV alternative.

I don't know if it is better with EM at the helm or not. My likelihood of buying another Tesla has dropped tremendously in the last 6 months because of things like USS removal, radar removal, passenger lumbar support removal, etc.

 

[bruce4000]

I have a 2021 model Y with USS and I have to back up a steep driveway into a garage with only inches to spare on each side so I can get in/ out on both sides. I find USS I’d of little use and use the backup camera and mirrors. USS just does a lot of distracting dinging. On the other hand, I would gladly trade the USS for a front curb view camera as always iffy knowing exactly when to stop in a parking stall without hitting the curb. I regularly park where there is a wall on the other side of the sidewalk and the USS says I have 3 feet when my front wheel is almost touching the curb.

 

[rogersmj]

If they remove the radar in 2021 in sort of an orderly fashion, with at least the SW alternative fully baked, it wouldn't have been as bad. Instead it was like a knee jerk alternative to supply chain issues. Then to disable radar from the S and X was doubling down on a stupid decision. I get it from a code support issue but my car with radar performed better than my TV only version of the same car.

Removing USS was just as stupid, and as much, if not more, impactful to me. They are still behind their competitors who have 360 views and good parking sensors systems. Again they tried to do it with cameras which pretty much has been a failure so far.

USS wasn't the best parking sensor system but it at least it was usable, and mostly accurate in my experience. The TV version still has a long ways to go. Now if they do bring back radar to all the cars, and have better cameras up front, then the people who bought now are totally screwed if the new parts aren't retrofittable. They end up without USS and a very poor TV alternative.

I don't know if it is better with EM at the helm or not. My likelihood of buying another Tesla has dropped tremendously in the last 6 months because of things like USS removal, radar removal, passenger lumbar support removal, etc.

I agree they’ve f’ed this up big time. After a week with my new MY, the stupid vision-based parking/distance system is the most annoying (and embarrassing) thing about it. Here’s this high-tech car with all these smart features, yet it beeps like a maniac when I pull into my garage because it’s convinced I am colliding with the cabinets that are still almost three feet in front of the car. And it gets confused by reflective line paint at night and thinks I’m going to hit a painted stop strip at an intersection. When on the highway, trucks and cars next to me “jitter” around on the visualization as the system tries to decide if the truck is 5 or 9 feet away.

It is ridiculous, it annoys me every single day, and Tesla should be embarrassed. This had better work properly with a software update.

 

[AJ..]

Honestly - and I say this with love, but Tesla needs to push Elon Musk out. He's got way too much on his plate, has been making *sugar* poor decisions left and right, and if Tesla wants to survive and compete, they have to change their philosophy.

Stripping USS and Radar has to be the dumbest, short sighted decisions that compromises safety. Look what Musk did at Twitter. If you disagree with him, you get fired. Nobody at Tesla is willing to stand up to him for fear of their career being ended.

This is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

I love Elon - he “was” different. And still do. But he has too much on his plate. He can focus on just cars and clean cars and he would’ve changed the trajectory that world moves on! For the better! I don’t think any other visionary can do justice to Tesla and all the tech that goes along. Establishing SC network, X and then 3 and then Y - and the safety features (about 9 months back we had an accident with Ford truck hitting our still Model 3 with toddlers! - so you see where I’m coming from - 0 injuries!) I would hate this thing to fail. But I don’t like the pure toxic work culture at Tesla and ALL his ventures including a very public X/Twitter fiasco. Given my brief I don’t think 9.9/10 any other person can make those bold calls and get them right in this very competitive industry. Tesla will unfortunately fail and fail badly (just their growth curve in reverse) if this USS-less and no radar, AND simply junk Park Assist were any indication how this company is run on day to day basis. It’s not just a customer rant but a horrible misstep - there may be something more t the story than just Elon shooting everyone else down in a meeting after endless wait to get FSD or smart AP working and having to manage multiple conflicting inputs in his software. At 20 BILLION!! PLUS $ company just has to do better. This is pure joke and colossal (and I don’t actually personally care about Park Assist, never have relied on anything other than mirrors)

I’m in awe of BMWs, Toyota and Honda even though I have hated ICE cars for polluting the environment - and even before EV arrived in the scene! Tesla won’t just get beat but beat badly. From just how they operate point of view as far as recovering from bad spot/decision - and seeing and knowing the customers’ views here - can’t honestly say I have hope for Tesla. We are not in 1930-70 or 80-90s era where Ford or GM could just do whatever - the word gets around quite fast in X/Twitter era of any missteps. I have a feeling Elon - instead of focusing on BitCoin, Cars, EV, Non Fossil Energy, Tunnels, GenAI!, and Rockets, Mars and colonizing and politics!! and left/right - can just leave alone all other businesses and just get into politics which seems to be his recent passion and focus. It’ll be better for him (and not all that great for Tesla or any of his other customers) but I’ll rather have him his 100% on that than mess other businesses. Hope he grows up (cage fight! really) and breaks new positive ground in keeping his employees happiest as that will be a sure sign his company and positive goals for the planet actually work in the long run. He has enough success and money to pursue that goal. Cheers for hope!

 

[BigDEV]

I love Elon - he “was” different. And still do. But he has too much on his plate. He can focus on just cars and clean cars and he would’ve changed the trajectory that world moves on! For the better! I don’t think any other visionary can do justice to Tesla and all the tech that goes along. Establishing SC network, X and then 3 and then Y - and the safety features (about 9 months back we had an accident with Ford truck hitting our still Model 3 with toddlers! - so you see where I’m coming from - 0 injuries!) I would hate this thing to fail. But I don’t like the pure toxic work culture at Tesla and ALL his ventures including a very public X/Twitter fiasco. Given my brief I don’t think 9.9/10 any other person can make those bold calls and get them right in this very competitive industry. Tesla will unfortunately fail and fail badly (just their growth curve in reverse) if this USS-less and no radar, AND simply junk Park Assist were any indication how this company is run on day to day basis. It’s not just a customer rant but a horrible misstep - there may be something more t the story than just Elon shooting everyone else down in a meeting after endless wait to get FSD or smart AP working and having to manage multiple conflicting inputs in his software. At 20 BILLION!! PLUS $ company just has to do better. This is pure joke and colossal (and I don’t actually personally care about Park Assist, never have relied on anything other than mirrors)

I’m in awe of BMWs, Toyota and Honda even though I have hated ICE cars for polluting the environment - and even before EV arrived in the scene! Tesla won’t just get beat but beat badly. From just how they operate point of view as far as recovering from bad spot/decision - and seeing and knowing the customers’ views here - can’t honestly say I have hope for Tesla. We are not in 1930-70 or 80-90s era where Ford or GM could just do whatever - the word gets around quite fast in X/Twitter era of any missteps. I have a feeling Elon - instead of focusing on BitCoin, Cars, EV, Non Fossil Energy, Tunnels, GenAI!, and Rockets, Mars and colonizing and politics!! and left/right - can just leave alone all other businesses and just get into politics which seems to be his recent passion and focus. It’ll be better for him (and not all that great for Tesla or any of his other customers) but I’ll rather have him his 100% on that than mess other businesses. Hope he grows up (cage fight! really) and breaks new positive ground in keeping his employees happiest as that will be a sure sign his company and positive goals for the planet actually work in the long run. He has enough success and money to pursue that goal. Cheers for hope!

Well said. The cagematch stuff is so stupid, childish, and a huge distraction from everything that he needs to be more focused on.

Being a good CEO is incredibly demanding and requires enormous amounts of commitment. When I think of a quintessential CEO model, I think of Tim Cook who took the reigns from the brilliant Steve Jobs and has taken Apple to unprecedented highs. You don't see Tim Cook trying to manage 4 different companies or get into childish fights with other CEOs about the size of their schlong.

EM needs to pick A company he wants to CEO and then bring in smart, capable, and independent people that aren't yes men or women to run the other companies.

Tesla can compete on cost structure alone against all OEMs because they have a decade head start on building EVs and making more from less. But now that they have decided to open up their network to nearly all other OEMs - and that network was one of the primary reasons Tesla was so successful early on against a weak playing field of Leafs and Bolts and i3s - they have leveled the playing field much more.

They need to continue to innovate and be ahead (and not behind the curve). They can't do that when the person at the top is so driven to distraction.

I have long positions on AAPL and TSLA stock. Right now, only one of those is looking like a smart long term play.

 

[Yelobird]

Well said. The cagematch stuff is so stupid, childish, and a huge distraction from everything that he needs to be more focused on.

Being a good CEO is incredibly demanding and requires enormous amounts of commitment. When I think of a quintessential CEO model, I think of Tim Cook who took the reigns from the brilliant Steve Jobs and has taken Apple to unprecedented highs. You don't see Tim Cook trying to manage 4 different companies or get into childish fights with other CEOs about the size of their schlong.

EM needs to pick A company he wants to CEO and then bring in smart, capable, and independent people that aren't yes men or women to run the other companies.

Tesla can compete on cost structure alone against all OEMs because they have a decade head start on building EVs and making more from less. But now that they have decided to open up their network to nearly all other OEMs - and that network was one of the primary reasons Tesla was so successful early on against a weak playing field of Leafs and Bolts and i3s - they have leveled the playing field much more.

They need to continue to innovate and be ahead (and not behind the curve). They can't do that when the person at the top is so driven to distraction.

I have long positions on AAPL and TSLA stock. Right now, only one of those is looking like a smart long term play.

Always amazes me when people feel the need to define what a person or CEO Should be doing with a company or money especially when each example is Beyond profitable and successful. Do you Really think he is in the shop assembling drive units or lacking a Mega team of brilliant minds to create/advance each company?? To say he needs to “pick a company” is comical in so many ways. Yeah he should sit at a desk and collect personal jets like other OEM car CEO’s, that will make them more successful lol. And regarding the “childish” fight. Yeah Crazy concept for a company that spends 0.0$ on marketing to gain Millions of people talking about your company and products for Free all for a Massive charity good will. So crazy Lol. He nor any CEO is our personal puppet. As long as they (the company‘s) are growing I could care less how they spend their money or what chair they sit on. And FYI Tim Cook didn’t take the company anywhere, the TEAM and Products did.

 

[OxBrew]

Honestly - and I say this with love, but Tesla needs to push Elon Musk out. He's got way too much on his plate, has been making *sugar* poor decisions left and right, and if Tesla wants to survive and compete, they have to change their philosophy.

Stripping USS and Radar has to be the dumbest, short sighted decisions that compromises safety. Look what Musk did at Twitter. If you disagree with him, you get fired. Nobody at Tesla is willing to stand up to him for fear of their career being ended.

This is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

It's a train wreck happening in slow motion. I no longer recommend Tesla to friends, and actually discourage purchasing one. A good friend of mine was an engineer at Tesla for a long time. He left before the twitter flail, and now says Elon can't be trusted to properly validate any new updates, he's obviously too unstable. There have been some pretty bad fails recently too, Y steering rack (seriously?) is the latest, on top of all the dumb decisions mentioned here already.

I think the best case for Tesla would be to stop making cars and just sell drivetrains and batteries as an OEM for the whole industry, focus on upgrading the SC network to high voltage, to charge all voltages. Making cars takes rigorous planning and execution, and Tesla is in a tailspin on both.

Just cancel FSD development, it's a fantasy, and wasting capital. Elon can't do it.

 

[smogne41]

It's a train wreck happening in slow motion. I no longer recommend Tesla to friends, and actually discourage purchasing one. A good friend of mine was an engineer at Tesla for a long time. He left before the twitter flail, and now says Elon can't be trusted to properly validate any new updates, he's obviously too unstable. There have been some pretty bad fails recently too, Y steering rack (seriously?) is the latest, on top of all the dumb decisions mentioned here already.

I think the best case for Tesla would be to stop making cars and just sell drivetrains and batteries as an OEM for the whole industry, focus on upgrading the SC network to high voltage, to charge all voltages. Making cars takes rigorous planning and execution, and Tesla is in a tailspin on both.

Just cancel FSD development, it's a fantasy, and wasting capital. Elon can't do it.

I would prefer they keep making cars, just shift to good driver-focused controls/experience (while maintaining a minimalist vibe), dump FSD and the the really bad automated features (like the camera wipers). They should actually look at the mountains of actual research about things like how unsafe touch screens are in cars stop relying on them for driving features. But yes to everything else: drivetrain and battery supplier to OEMs, open charging network operator, etc.

 

[shadow4478]

I don’t understand half the complaints
The vision system work great for me.
USS not needed imo. They add coat and above all slow down the computer needed for FSD

 

[DayTrippin]

I don’t understand half the complaints
The vision system work great for me.
USS not needed imo. They add coat and above all slow down the computer needed for FSD

Sadly, Tesla disagrees with you. If they had a viable solution for replacing USS, typically used for parking, then Summons and AutoPark would be enabled. Apparently, Tesla didn't get the memo.

I highly doubt there is a lot of processing going on when parking. USS doesn't seem to be used anywhere else. So most likely its input is ignored at higher speeds.

Overall, I think this is a good read for the current state of USS vs TV.

Tesla Vision vs Ultrasonic Sensors, Will Tesla’s New Sensor Tech Pass With Flying Colors? - Vehiclesuggest

The automotive industry has seen a rapid advancement in sensor technology over the years, with top manufacturers like Tesla constantly searching for new ways to improve the safety and convenience of their vehicles. One such example is Tesla’s decision to switch from ultrasonic sensors to...

www.vehiclesuggest.com

 

[hmadsen]

Well... they opened their major competitive advantage to their competitors; the supercharging network. That was one of the main reasons I bought a Tesla in the first place for the SC network.

I agree and i have already had the first grievances where a non-tesla had the charge port in the "wrong side" and a driver of that brand, had parked on the wrong spot to be able to charge, effectively taking up 2 charger spaces, and i had to wait because of it.

 

[hmadsen]

Sadly, Tesla disagrees with you. If they had a viable solution for replacing USS, typically used for parking, then Summons and AutoPark would be enabled. Apparently, Tesla didn't get the memo.

I highly doubt there is a lot of processing going on when parking. USS doesn't seem to be used anywhere else. So most likely its input is ignored at higher speeds.

Overall, I think this is a good read for the current state of USS vs TV.

Tesla Vision vs Ultrasonic Sensors, Will Tesla’s New Sensor Tech Pass With Flying Colors? - Vehiclesuggest

The automotive industry has seen a rapid advancement in sensor technology over the years, with top manufacturers like Tesla constantly searching for new ways to improve the safety and convenience of their vehicles. One such example is Tesla’s decision to switch from ultrasonic sensors to...

www.vehiclesuggest.com

To be fair, the summon, smart summon and autopark feature are rather gimmicky.

Instead of still asking a premium for the NoA package, they should just admit those 3 features are never coming back and then instead lower the price of that package with the 2 remaining features.

I would like to have the auto lanechange and Noa features, but not at their current price, thats for sure.

If they cut the price in half, i might consider it, but not at the current price.

 

[BigDEV]

Always amazes me when people feel the need to define what a person or CEO Should be doing with a company or money especially when each example is Beyond profitable and successful. Do you Really think he is in the shop assembling drive units or lacking a Mega team of brilliant minds to create/advance each company?? To say he needs to “pick a company” is comical in so many ways. Yeah he should sit at a desk and collect personal jets like other OEM car CEO’s, that will make them more successful lol. And regarding the “childish” fight. Yeah Crazy concept for a company that spends 0.0$ on marketing to gain Millions of people talking about your company and products for Free all for a Massive charity good will. So crazy Lol. He nor any CEO is our personal puppet. As long as they (the company‘s) are growing I could care less how they spend their money or what chair they sit on. And FYI Tim Cook didn’t take the company anywhere, the TEAM and Products did.

Twitter is beyond profitable and successful? Tesla is facing incredible pressure from reduced margins, price wars (they started) and competition. His other companies are private so we don't know how profitable they are. How about sticking to the facts in your rebuttals.

Tim Cook is a GOD in the CEO world. Untouchable. He has turned Apple into a services company and that was a brilliant move. Revenue from just airpods is higher than the value of most fortune 500 companies.

Cage match fighting MZ does nothing for Tesla stock or the company's bottom line and just solidifies public perception of Musk as a clown, a psychopath, or worse.

 

[Yelobird]

Twitter is beyond profitable and successful? Tesla is facing incredible pressure from reduced margins, price wars (they started) and competition. His other companies are private so we don't know how profitable they are. How about sticking to the facts in your rebuttals.

Tim Cook is a GOD in the CEO world. Untouchable. He has turned Apple into a services company and that was a brilliant move. Revenue from just airpods is higher than the value of most fortune 500 companies.

Cage match fighting MZ does nothing for Tesla stock or the company's bottom line and just solidifies public perception of Musk as a clown, a psychopath, or worse.

There isn’t a legacy automaker Trying to accomplish what Tesla has done in EV that would only Hope to get the margins or company value they have created. And FYI Twitter Is a privately owned company to which in very short order he cut all the dead weight and is on target to become profitable in short order. The fact that you spend all your time on a Tesla enthusiast forum barking hate shows many are worried about how far they Will go.

 

[X Fan]

There isn’t a legacy automaker Trying to accomplish what Tesla has done in EV that would only Hope to get the margins or company value they have created. And FYI Twitter Is a privately owned company to which in very short order he cut all the dead weight and is on target to become profitable in short order. The fact that you spend all your time on a Tesla enthusiast forum barking hate shows many are worried about how far they Will go.

The fact that you spend all your time on a Tesla enthusiast forum barking hate”

low post, always negative ”care bear” posters have been on here since when I joined 8 years ago.

They were shorts or competitor folks looking to tarnish the promising company. Now, they seem to congregate on negative posts and pile on (there are couple on this one)

FWIW, that particular poster is not an owner and has no personal experience with Tesla which reinforces my view.