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Israel/Hamas conflict

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Forgot - you are still denying and/or downplaying the atrocities on 10/7.
I am not denying Oct 7th. I am questioning Israeli narrative of mass rapes, mass tortures, and ~1100 civilian deaths. It is pretty clear that among the 1100, there were soldiers, and it is pretty clear that some of the civilians were killed by Israel military itself. But you cannot say these things, because it makes it harder to justify genocide.

Even if we are to believe Hamas' death toll reports (which are completely suspect), there is still a much lower Civilian to Combatant death rate in Gaza compared to the historical standard reported by the UN for Urban warfare. Look at what Assad/Russia and Iran has done to numerous Sunni cities in Syria. Look at what the US and Iraqi military did in Fallujah and Ramadi.

But yeah - it is not normal for a combatant to continue to pick fights with a much stronger foe and then hide behind women and children and under hospitals and schools.

Just imagine if Hamas stopped firing rockets and released the hostages?
We know from previous Israeli attacks on Gaza, that death toll numbers from Israel military, UN, and Gaza health ministry are within 10% or so of each other.
We also know from US intelligence agencies that about half the bombs used in Gaza were dumb bombs. Incase it is not clear in the name, it means no precision guiding system for the bomb. We also know based on NYT investigation that Israel uses 2000lb bombs on refugee camps. So put these together, 2000lb dumb bombs... Doesn't look like Israel cares that much about civilian life. Add the statements from president, prime minister, defense minister, military officials, you realize that they do care about civilians, in that they want to kill them as much as possible while trying to use the human shield argument. But this time, they went too far, and the world is watching..
 
The world was watching as the Nazis exterminated 6 million Jews as well. Israel will protect their people, because nobody else will. It's thoroughly disgusting that members of this forum would deny the horrific rape, torture, and murder of Israelis that occured on 10/7, and continue to occur within the dungeons of Gaza at this very moment.
 
Even if we are to believe Hamas' death toll reports (which are completely suspect), there is still a much lower Civilian to Combatant death rate in Gaza compared to the historical standard reported by the UN for Urban warfare.
What is your source for this?
Let's go with 25k number. As a typical demographic, you have 1 adult man, 1 adult woman, 2 kids. Therefore easily 3/4 of the 25k, which is 18.75k are woman are children. In order for your claim of "much lower civilian to combatant death" to be true, women and children must be hamas militants. Is that your claim?
 
I am not denying Oct 7th. I am questioning Israeli narrative of mass rapes, mass tortures, and ~1100 civilian deaths.
Good grief. Do you read what you write?

It's not much different than saying: "I'm not denying the Holocaust, I am just questioning the narrative of gas chambers, rape, death camps and number of Jews killed!"


We know from previous Israeli attacks on Gaza, that death toll numbers from Israel military, UN, and Gaza health ministry are within 10% or so of each other.

No we don't.

Everything we think we "know" about Gaza comes through the filter of Hamas.

The so called independent groups like the UN and UNRWA (not to mention the AP, Reuters and other new agencies) that have been operating in Gaza for years said last week they had no idea that Hamas was building billions of dollars worth of tunnels under their hospitals, schools and streets.

But we are to believe these same people when it comes to reporting out death tolls?

 
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The world was watching as the Nazis exterminated 6 million Jews as well. Israel will protect their people, because nobody else will. It's thoroughly disgusting that members of this forum would deny the horrific rape, torture, and murder of Israelis that occured on 10/7, and continue to occur within the dungeons of Gaza at this very moment.
Israel will never have peace by continually occupying territories, attacking its neighbors. There will be constant war. This is the reality.
I don't know what the solution is at this point, but I know that when you look at history, especially that region, jews, muslims and christians lived together in peace for centuries. Can we ever go back to that? I don't know...
 
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What is your source for this?
Let's go with 25k number. As a typical demographic, you have 1 adult man, 1 adult woman, 2 kids. Therefore easily 3/4 of the 25k, which is 18.75k are woman are children. In order for your claim of "much lower civilian to combatant death" to be true, women and children must be hamas militants. Is that your claim?
The UN and International Red Cross reports that 90% of the casualties are civilian in typical urban warfare.

Hamas is claiming 25K civilian deaths and Israel claims to have killed 9,000 Hamas militants. Do the math.

Even if you round up Hamas's claims and round down Israel's claims - the civilian death toll in Gaza is far below the historical norm.

Not saying that any civilian deaths are ideal, but it is remarkable how low the ratio is right now considering Hamas hides behind women, children, schools and hospitals.


 
Good grief. Do you read what you write?

It's not much different than saying: "I'm not denying the Holocaust, I am just questioning the narrative of gas chambers, rape, death camps and number of Jews killed!"
It is a shame to resort to holocaust... but not surprising. So what do you propose: We take Israel's word on what happened on Oct 7th? Even if we ignore the proven lies of Israel government, there is conflict of interest. That itself should be questioned.
No we don't.

Everything we think we "know" about Gaza comes through the filter of Hamas.

The so called independent groups like the UN and UNRWA (not to mention the AP, Reuters and other new agencies) that have been operating in Gaza for years said last week they had no idea that Hamas was building billions of dollars worth of tunnels under their hospitals, schools and streets.

But we are to believe these same people when it comes to reporting out death tolls?


I see that you conveniently left out Israeli army. As I said, their number, UN numbers, and Gaza health ministery numbers are very close. Let me repeat: Israel army tends to agree with death toll numbers coming from Gaza health ministry.

It is cool that Israel is starting to attack UN as well. By that I don't mean attacking UN schools etc in Gaza. I mean attacking the actual organization. Soon we will start hearing how antisemitic UN is.
 
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The UN and International Red Cross reports that 90% of the casualties are civilian in typical urban warfare.

Hamas is claiming 25K civilian deaths and Israel claims to have killed 9,000 Hamas militants. Do the math.

Even if you round up Hamas's claims and round down Israel's claims - the civilian death toll in Gaza is far below the historical norm.

Not saying that any civilian deaths are ideal, but it is remarkable how low the ratio is right now considering Hamas hides behind women, children, schools and hospitals.



Well, I read it quickly but the article you cited doesn't say casualties, as in deaths. From the UN article:
ANTÓNIO GUTERRES, Secretary-General of the United Nations, said that 50 million people in cities are affected by conflict in urban areas, facing such distinct dangers, as parties to conflict do not take measures to protect civilians. Indeed, when explosive weapons are used in cities, 90 per cent of those affected are civilians. Citing examples, from targeted attacks on schools from Gaza and Afghanistan to widespread infrastructure damage in Yemen, he said conflict in urban areas have widespread effects, setting back progress for decades, including on achieving the Sustainable Development Goals. Highlighting measures to prevent and mitigate these consequences, he said all parties must fully respect international humanitarian law and take steps to minimize incidental civilian harm.

Also, it is pretty ironic that the articles you shared are all about these murderous wars usually started or supported by US... but that's another discussion.
 
These things happen to Palestinians on a regular basis.
Those deceiving themselves that Israel does anything like the scale of organized barbarity of Oct 7 are deluded.

But this time, they went too far,
This time, October 7 time, Hamas and the Gazans who participated went too far.
Israel will never have peace by continually occupying territories, attacking its neighbors. There will be constant war. This is the reality.
I don't know what the solution is at this point, but I know that when you look at history, especially that region, jews, muslims and christians lived together in peace for centuries. Can we ever go back to that? I don't know...
Israel left Gaza in 2005. Just after that dusty Chatham house ruling from 2004 you pretend is relevant. Israel does not occupy Gaza any more that Egypt does. They both blockade the barbarians in that cess pool. Israel needs to get a stronger fence like Egypt has so the Gazans cannot commit their rape jihad on music concerts again.

Gaza will never have peace by continually attacking their neighbors, planning and waging rape jihad, instead of educating their children (girls too) to be productive humans and contribute something of value to this world instead of being martyrs for the next world.
 
It is a shame to resort to holocaust... but not surprising. So what do you propose: We take Israel's word on what happened on Oct 7th?
This is worse than Holocaust denial, because we have hundreds of hours of GoPro and CCTV video confirming Hamas' sickening atrocities. This is not ancient history where memories can become faulty or distorted. Hamas made no effort to cover up their brutality - rather they celebrated it! We have thousands of first hand testimonials of the survivors too.

Seriously, are there any reputable governing or international bodies that disputes what happened on 10/7?

The excuses and denials by the pro-Hamas keyboard warriors are nauseating: "Those babies didn't have their heads cut off, they were just shot in their cribs and burned to ash where there heads must have come loose!"
 
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This is worse than Holocaust denial, because we have hundreds of hours of GoPro and CCTV video confirming Hamas' sickening atrocities.
So you have GoPro and CCTV video of mass rape and mass torture? Please do share.

The excuses and denials by the pro-Hamas keyboard warriors are nauseating: "Those babies didn't have their heads cut off, they were just shot in their cribs and burned to ash where there heads must have come loose!"
Really? Babies with their heads cut off? The famous 40 beheaded babies? Where Biden lied on live TV... then retracted because there is no proof.

If you are making stuff up, why not say hamas used white phosphorous during the attack or were thinking of using nuclear bomb. Exaggerate as much as possible to make your conscious feel at ease during this genocide.
 
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Those deceiving themselves that Israel does anything like the scale of organized barbarity of Oct 7 are deluded.
It is up to you to deny countless human right reports, UN reports etc. If you don't want to learn, no one can force you.

Israel left Gaza in 2005.
That is correct. Then put a wall/fence around it, and started controlling its borders & air space. You are making it sound like Israel left Gaza alone, where in fact they did not. To a point where they calculated how much food is just about enough:
 
The Meaning of Gaza’s Tunnels https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/opinion/tunnels-gaza-hamas.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

A thorough opinion piece, but unfortunately behind the NY Times paywall.
Bret Stephens is usually excellent.

Key points:

Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Gazans were often treated in Israeli hospitals for cancer and other life-threatening conditions. Israel provided Gaza with much of its electricity and other critical goods even after Hamas came to power in 2007.

Israeli defense officials now estimate that Hamas’s tunnels measure between 350 and 450 miles in a territory that’s just 25 miles long. (By comparison, the London Underground is only 249 miles long.) Some of Gaza’s tunnels are wide enough for cars; some are more than 150 feet deep; some serve as munitions depots; others are comfortably kitted out as command bunkers.

there are 5,700 separate entrances to the tunnels — many of them with access from civilian houses and some directly beneath Gaza City’s main hospital, which U.S. intelligence agencies say was also used as a Hamas command center. Within that maze, scores of Israeli hostages, including a year-old infant, are being held without fresh air, sunlight, adequate medicine or food, or visits from the Red Cross.

All this should radically reconfigure the world’s understanding of what Hamas has done in, and to, Gaza. It has turned the territory into a gigantic military fortress purpose-built to attack Israel, endure Israeli retaliation and interpose civilian lives and infrastructure as part of its means of defense. Imagine any other government doing something similar to its people — say, putting the NORAD command center directly below Times Square — for a sense of the outrage Hamas is perpetrating against its own people.

That’s not the only outrage. How much did it cost to build these tunnels? How much concrete, steel and electricity did it divert from civilian needs? How many millions of hours of labor were given to the effort? What was the cost of building up its stockpile of thousands of rockets, which continue to be fired at Israel? How many ordinary Gazans had to be conscripted into the effort of miserably shoveling dirt deep underground — and how many perished in the effort?

“Some tunnel-building materials also came from aid earmarked for development projects by international aid agencies in Gaza or were purchased on the open market when Israel allowed some imports into Gaza starting in 2010,” The Journal added.

In other words, Hamas stole from foreign donors, subtracted what probably amounted to billions of dollars over several years from Gaza’s gross domestic product, and diverted labor from productive to destructive ends, all to feed its war machine. Western progressives are usually against this sort of thing, at least when it comes to the guns-to-butter ratio in their own democracies. Why are they virtually silent about it now?

The tunnels also help explain the level of destruction that Israel has wreaked on Gaza since the war began. If Hamas hides the bulk of its fighters and munitions in the tunnels, Israel somehow has to find, search and destroy those tunnels. If Hamas builds the entrances to those tunnels inside private homes, schools or hospitals, those places all become military targets.

Hamas could have averted this tragedy if it had turned Gaza into an enclave for peace rather than terror. It could have averted it if it had not started four previous rounds of war against Israel. It could have averted it if it had honored the cease-fire that held on Oct. 6. It could have lessened the blow against Gazans by fighting in the open, not behind civilians. It could have eased it by releasing all of its hostages. It could end it now by surrendering its leaders and sending its fighters into exile.

Till then, Hamas bears the blame for every death in this war.
 
“I saw the videos… The most shocking thing was to see the DELIGHT Hamas had in killing innocent people; the DELIGHT in killing kids and defenseless women and men….There was no remorse. Quite the opposite. That requires a level of indoctrination that is extremely intense. So, I think to solve that, you have to address the source of the indoctrination. Because no one should ever be glad about the killing of a child.”