Israel/Hamas conflict

[Just a Reader]

Bret Stephens is usually excellent.

Key points:

Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Gazans were often treated in Israeli hospitals for cancer and other life-threatening conditions. Israel provided Gaza with much of its electricity and other critical goods even after Hamas came to power in 2007.

Israeli defense officials now estimate that Hamas’s tunnels measure between 350 and 450 miles in a territory that’s just 25 miles long. (By comparison, the London Underground is only 249 miles long.) Some of Gaza’s tunnels are wide enough for cars; some are more than 150 feet deep; some serve as munitions depots; others are comfortably kitted out as command bunkers.

there are 5,700 separate entrances to the tunnels — many of them with access from civilian houses and some directly beneath Gaza City’s main hospital, which U.S. intelligence agencies say was also used as a Hamas command center. Within that maze, scores of Israeli hostages, including a year-old infant, are being held without fresh air, sunlight, adequate medicine or food, or visits from the Red Cross.

All this should radically reconfigure the world’s understanding of what Hamas has done in, and to, Gaza. It has turned the territory into a gigantic military fortress purpose-built to attack Israel, endure Israeli retaliation and interpose civilian lives and infrastructure as part of its means of defense. Imagine any other government doing something similar to its people — say, putting the NORAD command center directly below Times Square — for a sense of the outrage Hamas is perpetrating against its own people.

That’s not the only outrage. How much did it cost to build these tunnels? How much concrete, steel and electricity did it divert from civilian needs? How many millions of hours of labor were given to the effort? What was the cost of building up its stockpile of thousands of rockets, which continue to be fired at Israel? How many ordinary Gazans had to be conscripted into the effort of miserably shoveling dirt deep underground — and how many perished in the effort?

“Some tunnel-building materials also came from aid earmarked for development projects by international aid agencies in Gaza or were purchased on the open market when Israel allowed some imports into Gaza starting in 2010,” The Journal added.

In other words, Hamas stole from foreign donors, subtracted what probably amounted to billions of dollars over several years from Gaza’s gross domestic product, and diverted labor from productive to destructive ends, all to feed its war machine. Western progressives are usually against this sort of thing, at least when it comes to the guns-to-butter ratio in their own democracies. Why are they virtually silent about it now?

The tunnels also help explain the level of destruction that Israel has wreaked on Gaza since the war began. If Hamas hides the bulk of its fighters and munitions in the tunnels, Israel somehow has to find, search and destroy those tunnels. If Hamas builds the entrances to those tunnels inside private homes, schools or hospitals, those places all become military targets.

Hamas could have averted this tragedy if it had turned Gaza into an enclave for peace rather than terror. It could have averted it if it had not started four previous rounds of war against Israel. It could have averted it if it had honored the cease-fire that held on Oct. 6. It could have lessened the blow against Gazans by fighting in the open, not behind civilians. It could have eased it by releasing all of its hostages. It could end it now by surrendering its leaders and sending its fighters into exile.

Till then, Hamas bears the blame for every death in this war.

Did Gaza have sovereign control over its borders? No, it didn't. It didn't even have an airport or free access to the sea. It was a prison and it was controlled by Israel. Anyone who wanted to leave Gaza was only able to do so with permission by Israel, the very definition of a prision. Israel's control was so total that in the end they didn't even allow the export of donkeys to Gaza any more. Israel was also quite happy to have Hamas in power, as this situation split the Palestinian voice. That a small part of the border is with Egypt, which is run by a pro-Western dictator, doesn't absolve Israel of its responsibility.

 

[indysurfer]

Did Gaza have sovereign control over its borders? No, it didn't. It didn't even have an airport or free access to the sea. It was a prison and it was controlled by Israel. Anyone who wanted to leave Gaza was only able to do so with permission by Israel, the very definition of a prision. Israel's control was so total that in the end they didn't even allow the export of donkeys to Gaza any more. Israel was also quite happy to have Hamas in power, as this situation split the Palestinian voice. That a small part of the border is with Egypt, which is run by a pro-Western dictator, doesn't absolve Israel of its responsibility.

You act like Egypt and Israel set up the blockade just for kicks.

When in reality it was due to Hamas taking over Gaza, killing their opposition and firing thousands of rockets into Israel for nearly 2 decades. Short of Israel going door to door as they are now to destroy rocket sites (and retrieve hostages) what on earth do you recommend Israel to do about thousands of rockets over this period? It‘s not like Israel could meet Hamas’ demands of moving every last Jew out of Israel. What other country on this planet would be expected to absorb thousand and thousands of rocket attacks?

The Egyptian and Israeli blockade was the least violent and most humane option available.

 

[Just a Reader]

You act like Egypt and Israel set up the blockade just for kicks.

When in reality it was due to Hamas taking over Gaza, killing their opposition and firing thousands of rockets into Israel for nearly 2 decades. Short of Israel going door to door as they are now to destroy rocket sites (and retrieve hostages) what on earth do you recommend Israel to do about thousands of rockets over this period? It‘s not like Israel could meet Hamas’ demands of moving every last Jew out of Israel. What other country on this planet would be expected to absorb thousand and thousands of rocket attacks?

The Egyptian and Israeli blockade was the least violent and most humane option available.

Nice try, but the Palestinian authority in the West Bank doesn't have any control over any of its borders either, not even over the border to Jordan, and neither are there any civilian airports in the West Bank. I suppose that's also because of Hamas? The attempts to justify the stifling Israeli control over all aspects of Palestinian life are getting rather desperate.
In the past Israel even prevented students with valid visas from studying abroad. I would call measures like that collective punishment.

Gaza: Israel Blocks 670 Students from Studies Abroad

www.hrw.org

 

[SmokyPeat]

Huh, I wonder if there could possibly be any security issues with airports in the West Bank or Gaza.

When plane hijackings were Palestinian terrorists' weapon of choice

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[Sti-g]

In the mean time, the most moral army in the world:

 

[indysurfer]

The attempts to justify the stifling Israeli control over all aspects of Palestinian life are getting rather desperate.

I think 10/7 more than justified it.

Until the Palestinians give up their dream of ethnically cleansing all Jews out of Israel (majority view in the West Bank too) and finally agree to a 2 state solution, how can there ever be normal relations (and borders) between Israel and the Palestinians?

Face it, Hamas' barbarity on 10/7 was DESIGNED to ruin faith and trust for generations.

Many of the leftwing peacenik Israelis who were butchered on 10/7 had Gazans working in their homes and towns for years and were some of the biggest advocates for Palestinians in all of Israel. Only to be tortured and murdered by many of the same people they were trying to help.

 

[Sti-g]

Huh, I wonder if there could possibly be any security issues with airports in the West Bank or Gaza.

When plane hijackings were Palestinian terrorists' weapon of choice

***

www.haaretz.com

This is your argument:
1. We will occupy your land
2. Because we are occupying your land, we fear you may attack us
3. Therefore we have to impose all sort of sanctions
4. When you attack us, you are the bad guys
5. Since we are "defending" ourselves, we are the good guys

You were able to sell this story for a long time, but thanks to technology, the whole world is watching what is really happening.

 

[Sti-g]

I think 10/7 more than justified it.

It is easy to take things out of context. Did Oct 7th happened in vacuum?

Until the Palestinians give up their dream of ethnically cleansing all Jews out of Israel (majority view in the West Bank too) and finally agree to a 2 state solution, how can there ever be normal relations (and borders) between Israel and the Palestinians?

Was Israel ever serious about 2-state solution? We have Netanyahu on video saying he would never agree to it. Not to mention his recent tweets & videos.
In anyways, if Israel is so keen on 2-state solution, why are they continually annexing more and more of West Bank?

 

[indysurfer]

Was Israel ever serious about 2-state solution?

Israel (under numerous different leftwing/rightwing governments) have offered peace deals for the past 20 years. Bill Clinton is still pissed that Arafat walked away from the 2000 proposals. Arafat knew he would be killed by his own people if he made peace with Jews.

Hamas refuses any negotiations at all. So they are not even worth discussing.

Abbas is in his 20th year of his 4 year appointment of running the PA in the West Bank.

There are no peace partners on the Palestinian side. And you wonder why Israel's hearts have hardened?

 

[Unclepaul]

Interesting thing to me is how no country in the World wants to provide Palestinians a place to settle. Especially the Arab Nations. They really want nothing to do with providing them a homeland. Tremendous areas of un occupied land could be carved out for them, but...cricikits.

 

[enemji]

As always, European problem is a world problem. They had a problem with having Jews in their countries, and they gave them Israel to escape to, and causing a problem in the middle east, and made sure the rest of the world aligns with that approach.

 

[indysurfer]

Here are some Palestinians in Gaza demanding that Hamas release all of the remaining hostages after Hamas refused another ceasefire deal.

Unlike the pro-Hamas marchers and keyboard warriors in the West, these Palestinians actually have to live with the consequences of Hamas' barbarity.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1750110113531052412

 

[Just a Reader]

Huh, I wonder if there could possibly be any security issues with airports in the West Bank or Gaza.

When plane hijackings were Palestinian terrorists' weapon of choice

***

www.haaretz.com

Stuff from the 1960s, 1970s, really? We don't even have to look at the Israeli PMs who started their careers as terrorists in the Irgun, as with Itamar Ben-Gvir Israel has a current minister who was convicted of terrorism offences.
Anyway, the fact that even the West Bank has neither an airport, nor control over its borders, clearly shows that accommodating Israel does not achieve any progress for the Palestinians.

 

[Just a Reader]

Israel (under numerous different leftwing/rightwing governments) have offered peace deals for the past 20 years. Bill Clinton is still pissed that Arafat walked away from the 2000 proposals. Arafat knew he would be killed by his own people if he made peace with Jews.

Hamas refuses any negotiations at all. So they are not even worth discussing.

Abbas is in his 20th year of his 4 year appointment of running the PA in the West Bank.

There are no peace partners on the Palestinian side. And you wonder why Israel's hearts have hardened?

Israel has no peace partners? Secretary of State Kerry clearly stated in 2016 that Israel had sabotaged any attempts to find a solution. Even if there were really people left until now who believed that Israel was genuinely interested in a solution, they would have been forced to lay that to rest after Netanyahu clearly stated that Israel wouldn't tolerate a Palestinian state.

 

[DamascuS75D]

Interesting thing to me is how no country in the World wants to provide Palestinians a place to settle. Especially the Arab Nations. They really want nothing to do with providing them a homeland. Tremendous areas of un occupied land could be carved out for them, but...cricikits.

That is because PALESTINE is their homeland... my God..

 

[indysurfer]

Israel has no peace partners? Secretary of State Kerry clearly stated in 2016 that Israel had sabotaged any attempts to find a solution. Even if there were really people left until now who believed that Israel was genuinely interested in a solution, they would have been forced to lay that to rest after Netanyahu clearly stated that Israel wouldn't tolerate a Palestinian state.

Unlike in Gaza and the West Bank (let alone majority of the Muslim/Arab world) where their dictators remain in power for life, Israel has frequent elections and changes in leadership. Some are more conciliatory than others. Before Netanyahu became everyone's bogeyman, Ariel Sharon was the Israeli haters #1 enemy - yet he was the one that gave all of Gaza back.

Before Hamas' barbarism on 10/7 destroyed the peace process for generations, I could provide you thousands of examples of Israeli politicians, leaders and man on the street interviews with Israelis who are open to a 2 state solution.

Can you name even 2 prominent Palestinians who could be considered "Peace Partners" today that would publically say they accept Israel living in some borders in Israel?

Also - we can thank John Kerry, along with Obama and Biden for foolishly trying to sideline Saudi Arabia and Gulf State's normalization with Israel to suck up to Iran who is funding Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis causing this current conflict. So I don't take anything John Kerry says about the Region with great confidence.

 

[DamascuS75D]

I think 10/7 more than justified it.

Until the Palestinians give up their dream of ethnically cleansing all Jews out of Israel (majority view in the West Bank too) and finally agree to a 2 state solution, how can there ever be normal relations (and borders) between Israel and the Palestinians?

Face it, Hamas' barbarity on 10/7 was DESIGNED to ruin faith and trust for generations.

Many of the leftwing peacenik Israelis who were butchered on 10/7 had Gazans working in their homes and towns for years and were some of the biggest advocates for Palestinians in all of Israel. Only to be tortured and murdered by many of the same people they were trying to help.

2 weeks prior to 7/10, Netanyahu showed a map to the UN General assembly where there was no Palestine, only Israel. Don't tell me Israel is interested in supporting a 2state solution.

(moderator edit)

And btw, there is a piece of Palestine without Hamas, it's called the WestBank.. you know, that area that Israeli settlers occupy whenever they please and where many innocent Palestinians have been disposessed, injured and killed over the last few years.

Just today, in a piece from itv, a Gazan carrying a white flag was shot and killed by the IDF. As earlier footage has shown, this is not a standalone incident- it happens all the time.

 

[indysurfer]

2 weeks prior to 7/10, Netanyahu showed a map to the UN General assembly where there was no Palestine, only Israel. Don't tell me Israel is interested in supporting a 2state solution.

And every UNRWA textbook supplied to Gaza and West Bank has no Israel on the map. Been this way for decades. The textbooks were so bad in terms of inciting anti-Semitism, even the European Parliament (EP) was forced to criticize it.

UNRWA textbooks draw European censure - AIJAC

In a step hailed as “unprecedented”, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) has been censured by the European Parliament (EP) for the use of school textbooks that contain hate speech and incitement to violence.

aijac.org.au

You think it's a coincidence that on Oct 7 the border patrol was on a break, while Israel had been notified by Egypt that 'something was cooking'? Why are y'all silent on that?

Oh boy, we got a 10/7 truther here.

I suppose Israel should have invaded Gaza preemptively to take out the rockets and destroy Hamas' tunnels and leadership?

And btw, there is a piece of Palestine without Hamas, it's called the WestBank.. you know, that area that Israeli settlers occupy whenever they please and where many innocent Palestinians have been disposessed, injured and killed over the last few years.

Would be great if the Palestinians finally give up their goal of wiping Israel off the map and negotiated a peace deal so final borders can be set.

 

[Sti-g]

Palestinians carrying white flag gunned down on live TV. One dead.

 

[Sti-g]

Interesting thing to me is how no country in the World wants to provide Palestinians a place to settle. Especially the Arab Nations. They really want nothing to do with providing them a homeland. Tremendous areas of un occupied land could be carved out for them, but...cricikits.

In other words: Why is no one willing to help Israel to ethnically cleans Palestinians.