Israel/Hamas conflict

[indysurfer]

Short of killing every single Gazan, I don't think hamas can be eliminated.

Suggesting that the majority of Gazans are either complicit or too weak to take back their land from Islamist homicidal maniacs?

The Arabs in the West Bank have managed to keep Hamas out of power and aren't firing thousands of rockets into Israel picking unwinnable fights.

 

[Sti-g]

FFS.... the backwards gymnastics that some Hamas apologists will go to deny reality.

"Sorry about your peace raves and sleeping peacefully in your beds Israelis - things went a little bit south!"

You keep saying that, there is still no proof of mass rapes, mass tortures or the like. Anyways, we went back and forth enough times. Truth will come to light, and we will discuss again when that happens.

Here is an example of Israeli military action. Do you also consider this as "heinous and barbaric"?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1754530564135379065

 

[Sti-g]

Suggesting that the majority of Gazans are either complicit or too weak to take back their land from Islamist homicidal maniacs?

You misunderstood my point, which was pretty obvious actually. As Israel terrorize Gazans, they are only helping hamas.

The Arabs in the West Bank have managed to keep Hamas out of power and aren't firing thousands of rockets into Israel picking unwinnable fights.

Not sure if it is as simple as that. Let's not forget how Netanyahu helped breaking the Palestinian leadership into two, making sure West Bank was governed by another group.

Also, situation in West Bank is vastly different. What's left of West Bank? People have to go through 25 check points to go out and buy bread.

 

[Just a Reader]

Suggesting that the majority of Gazans are either complicit or too weak to take back their land from Islamist homicidal maniacs?

The Arabs in the West Bank have managed to keep Hamas out of power and aren't firing thousands of rockets into Israel picking unwinnable fights.

Right, and look how well they are being treated by Israel in return:

Rising violence against Palestinians by Israeli forces in the West Bank, reports Amnesty

Amnesty International has highlighted an alarming increase in violence by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank over the last four months. The human rights organization has documented numerous instances of what it describes as unlawful killings and excessive use of force...

www.helsinkitimes.fi

 

[indysurfer]

Here is an example of Israeli military action. Do you also consider this as "heinous and barbaric"?

Isn't this the same kid trying to kill an Israeli guard just moments before?

Yet you are here posting this and basically accusing Israelis of murdering Palestinian children in cold blood for no reason.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1754504738580635843

 

[wdolson]

I'm not sure that Hamas can be completely eliminated, but I wouldn't assume that it can't be, either. You don't hear much from Black September these days. The main thing is to remove Hamas from power, and weaken them to the point that they don't pose a threat to Israeli civilians.

Black September was a branch of Fatah and the PLO that was shut down by the head organization. The PLO itself decided that peacefully running the West Bank was a better path than violence.

Insurgencies end with either the more powerful force giving up and leaving, or both sides agreeing to peacefully co-exist. The stronger force never wins by destroying the insurgents.

 

[madodel]

Black September was a branch of Fatah and the PLO that was shut down by the head organization. The PLO itself decided that peacefully running the West Bank was a better path than violence.

Insurgencies end with either the more powerful force giving up and leaving, or both sides agreeing to peacefully co-exist. The stronger force never wins by destroying the insurgents.

The one difference is that Israel will do anything to kill off the Hamas leaders and much of their murdering, rapist terrorists. They will hunt them down. They may not get all of them like they never got all of the NAZI murders, and it may take years, but whoever is left will always be looking over their shoulder wondering when it's their turn.

 

[wdolson]

The one difference is that Israel will do anything to kill off the Hamas leaders and much of their murdering, rapist terrorists. They will hunt them down. They may not get all of them like they never got all of the NAZI murders, and it may take years, but whoever is left will always be looking over their shoulder wondering when it's their turn.

New leaders will rise up to take their place. Trying to beat Hamas is a feat that no conventional army has achieved since 1948 when the British Army defeated a Malaysian insurgency, but the British left shortly after.

Modern insurgency armies can be degraded, but can't be destroyed.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Insurgencies end with either the more powerful force giving up and leaving, or both sides agreeing to peacefully co-exist. The stronger force never wins by destroying the insurgents.

That's not remotely accurate. Numerous insurgencies have been put down by force. Just a few examples:

The British put down insurgencies in both Malaya and Kenya. Both Russia and the Soviet Union put down insurgencies in Chechnya. Communist Yugoslavia put down Croatian and Slovenian insurgencies. The Soviet Union quashed multiple insurgencies including in Hungary. Sri Lanka put down the Tamil Tiger insurgents. It's foolish to assume that Hamas cannot be defeated by force.

 

[wdolson]

That's not remotely accurate. Numerous insurgencies have been put down by force. Just a few examples:

The British put down insurgencies in both Malaya and Kenya. Both Russia and the Soviet Union put down insurgencies in Chechnya. Communist Yugoslavia put down Croatian and Slovenian insurgencies. The Soviet Union quashed multiple insurgencies including in Hungary. Sri Lanka put down the Tamil Tiger insurgents. It's foolish to assume that Hamas cannot be defeated by force.

I was unclear. I was talking about a regular outside army. Government armies have put down internal rebellions in a number of cases. The case in Kenya was the same pattern as Malay. The British left shortly after the rebellion ended.

The thing with modern insurgencies is that some national actor is willing to back the insurgents and keep them supplied. In an internal conflict such as Chechnya, the rebels are isolated from foreign help and they end up getting starved out. Internal conflicts in which the insurgent group get outside help can go on for a long time too.

Feeding insurgencies became a common theme during the cold war. It was originally just done by the US and USSR, but now many state actors got into the game. Most violent causes can now get outside help unless they are geographically isolated enough that the conventional force can starve them out. It still ends up a very bloody and messy conflict. The Russians essentially razed Chechnya to the ground passifying them.

Hamas, Hezbolah, and the Houthis all have outside help. If Iran has a counter revolution and the leadership changes to people more friendly to the west, most of the support for those organizations will dry up and the insurgencies will weaken, unless they find a new sponsor.

 

[DamascuS75D]

Since we will not agree on who's to blame here.. maybe taking a look to the future - how do you think this can be solved?

 

[Bouba]

There are too many variables...a lot will depend on the political will of the major players and who will still be in government in a few months...for example, in the case of The United States, the Democrats are losing the support of the radical youth but hoping to make up for it with Taylor Swift fans...it’s a conundrum

 

[Scubamikey]

As far as the 14 you being shot.. was that the kid that tried to stab the police/military with a knife ?

not sure how this war will ever end. just tired of our government keep giving money to everyone but cant help my firends that lost there house in the maui fire.. hell we cant even secure our own boarders.

 

[Sti-g]

Isn't this the same kid trying to kill an Israeli guard just moments before?

Yet you are here posting this and basically accusing Israelis of murdering Palestinian children in cold blood for no reason.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1754504738580635843

Why execute him? He is already on the ground.

 

[Sti-g]

Israeli soldiers boasting about genocide on Telegram. (moderator edit) Reported by Haaretz in December. As usual, Israel denied.

Graphic videos and incitement: How the IDF is misleading Israelis on Telegram

***

www.haaretz.com

Then, as usual, it turned out to be true.

Israeli army admits running unauthorized graphic Gaza influence op

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[indysurfer]

Israeli soldiers boasting about genocide on Telegram.

Can't get past the paywall.

But the IDF showing the bodies of dead Hamas fighters is not remotely the same thing as "boasting about genocide".

 

[SmokyPeat]

Since we will not agree on who's to blame here.. maybe taking a look to the future - how do you think this can be solved?

The first step is obviously to remove Hamas from power. Then to rebuild Gaza, and provide Gazan children with an education that doesn't poison their young minds with hate. If they can demonstrate an ability to live somewhat peacefully with Israel for a period, a two state solution should be explored again. On the Israeli side, they need to get the radical yahoos out of government and stop the encroachment of settlers into the West Bank. It's difficult to be optimistic right now, but some day there can be peace in the region.

 

[indysurfer]

Why execute him? He is already on the ground.

Is that even what happened?

I can't trust any of the propaganda you post here.

 

[indysurfer]

The first step is obviously to remove Hamas from power.

Yep - nothing can happen until Hamas is out of power. For all those who purport to care about Palestinian lives and demanding a ceasefire, they should be in lockstep in wanting Hamas gone.

Yet in all of the protests, street marches and meaningless resolutions passed by Leftist city councils around the world demanding a ceasefire, there is never any demands for Hamas to surrender or even return hostages.

So that tells us a great deal that many hate Israel more than they care about Palestinian lives.

 

[Bouba]

Yep - nothing can happen until Hamas is out of power. For all those who purport to care about Palestinian lives and demanding a ceasefire, they should be in lockstep in wanting Hamas gone.

Yet in all of the protests, street marches and meaningless resolutions passed by Leftist city councils around the world demanding a ceasefire, there is never any demands for Hamas to surrender or even return hostages.

So that tells us a great deal that many hate Israel more than they care about Palestinian lives.

The left are always willing to sacrifice others to promote their ideology