Israel/Hamas conflict

[indysurfer]

Then there are the radical elements who aren't willing to settle for half a pie, but want the whole thing. These people want to wipe Israel from the map and make the state of Palestine the entire region of the original protectorate from the post-WW I era. Hamas is the most active of these groups right now, but Hezbollah and others are active too.

Sadly, I think this radical element is the majority of the population.

Look at this video of all these seemingly moderate and cosmopolitan Palestinians in the West Bank simply refusing to accept having any Jews living inside modern day Israel.

The Palestinians have been given decades of false hope by many in the West, ranging from misguided pacifists and Leftists, to full on anti-Semites and Islamists to keep fighting and refusing all 2-state peace deals.

So here we are all these years later with Gaza in ruins and any conceivable peace deal set back decades.

 

[bhzmark]

Again with mass rape and torture.. where is the proof?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/sexual-assault-october-7-israel-witness-int/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-violence-hamas-israel-what-we-know-intl/index.html

Even the guardian admits it Evidence points to systematic use of rape and sexual violence by Hamas in 7 October attacks
And bbc Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October, BBC hears

And especially: https://x.com/YaariCohen/status/1745542556459421770?s=20

 

[SmokyPeat]

Netanyahu tells US he opposes creation of Palestinian state after Gaza war
What will Netanyahu's plan be post war, post office? Hunker down in Israel where he will likely be protected by future PMs?

Who cares? He will be protected whether he stays in Israel or moves to the US. Most outsiders know little about his family, but his brother Yonaton was killed leading the amazing Entebbe hostage rescue in 1976. That alone more or less guarantees his security inside Israel.

 

[Sti-g]

You deny or downplay the atrocities of 10/7 while you exaggerate the conditions in Gaza.

Video is out there for all the world to see.

I am not denying the atrocities in general. I am questioning the extend of it. There is a lot that is not known, but I am pretty sure there is large amount of exaggeration (I hate using this word in this context, because even a single human life is sacred) from the Israeli government to use it as a justification on the amount of force used in Gaza. This is clear because there was immediate association of hamas to isis, holocaust argument is made, 40 beheaded baby story came up... Why use these trigger words? hamas has nothing to do with isis. Ideology and goal of isis was completely different. holocaust was an industrialized massacre of 12 million people. Comparing holocaust to oct 7th cheapens holocaust. 40 beheaded babies terrifies anyone who hears it... So why use these trigger words? My argument is that it was a disgusting attempt to get public support for what would come next.

Do you honestly think what Israel has been doing in the past 100 or so days in Gaza is normal?

 

[Sti-g]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/sexual-assault-october-7-israel-witness-int/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-violence-hamas-israel-what-we-know-intl/index.html

Even the guardian admits it Evidence points to systematic use of rape and sexual violence by Hamas in 7 October attacks
And bbc Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October, BBC hears

And especially: https://x.com/YaariCohen/status/1745542556459421770?s=20

I will repeat myself... If it happened (and I am not claiming it didn't happen), it is terrible. But does it justify genocide?

Whoever raped those civilians, they are animals. I don't have any problem denouncing them. But are you being fair? Do you approach the statements from Palestinians who say they are raped in Israel prison with the same conviction?

 

[Bouba]

Hey guys, I think we are giving stig too much oxygen of publicity..if we are quiet he might return to underneath his rock

 

[Sti-g]

Videos and evidence have been available for months.

Some people just choose to disbelieve.

Link below has plenty of awful videos from Hamas and CCTV cameras cataloged if you have the stomach for it.

Hamas Massacre - October 2023

On October 7, 2023, thousands of Hamas terrorists breached Israel’s security fence. Over 1,400 men, women, and children were murdered in the ensuing attack. More than 200 were kidnapped to Gaza. These graphic videos and images document the horrors of that day.

www.hamas-massacre.net

Yes I have seen some of these videos, they are terrible. I am tired of repeating myself... I am not in denial of killings of civilians etc... It is wrong, it should not have happened, but bring in the context. If you oppress people for 75 years, why are you surprised when they do evil sh*t like this? Evil brings evil. Why are you holding them to a high moral standard while giving a free pass to Israel? Why are you looking at this in vacuum?

 

[Sti-g]

Whoever raped those civilians (and young women in the IDF)? Dear god, do you think it may have been Canadians?

Funny. As you know, pretty much no one is allowed to enter Gaza, so they have to be from Gaza.
Maybe it is the Canadians rape the Palestinians Israeli prisons. Let's get our facts straight...

 

[Jigglypuff]

The people who don't understand what antisemitism is are usually the loudest antisemites. Ideas are complicated.

Those who say they're unfairly called antisemites are always the loudest antisemites.

 

[Jigglypuff]

Sadly, I think this radical element is the majority of the population.

Look at this video of all these seemingly moderate and cosmopolitan Palestinians in the West Bank simply refusing to accept having any Jews living inside modern day Israel.

The Palestinians have been given decades of false hope by many in the West, ranging from misguided pacifists and Leftists, to full on anti-Semites and Islamists to keep fighting and refusing all 2-state peace deals.

So here we are all these years later with Gaza in ruins and any conceivable peace deal set back decades.

Check out that open air prison.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Funny. As you know, pretty much no one is allowed to enter Gaza, so they have to be from Gaza.
Maybe it is the Canadians rape the Palestinians Israeli prisons. Let's get our facts straight...

Yeah, I was trying to be funny. Then I realized that I probably misinterpreted your post, and that rape jokes are distasteful so I deleted the post.

 

[indysurfer]

hamas has nothing to do with isis. Ideology and goal of isis was completely different.

Huh? Completely different?

They are both Sunni Islamist terrorist groups that target and murder civilians. They are both offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood that spawned Al Qaeda and ISIS.

They both want Israel destroyed, they reject the Israeli peace settlements with Egypt and Jordan, and they both want Islam to reclaim their historical caliphate that dominated the Middle East, Asia and much of Europe.

Hamas won't settle for just Gaza.

 

[Unclepaul]

When Japan launched their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, USA declared War on Japan. No Nation will tolerate another Country coming on their soil and killing and raping their citizens.
We never let up. Initially the War went bad for us, but we figured it out and redoubled our efforts to protect our Country.
Soon after, Germany declared War on us. Put USA is quite the pickle, with strong enemies on both sides.

Many died on both sides, but the USA came out victorious, and our Country grew even stronger. Germany finally secumed after many other countries banded together to stop Hitler and his Nazis.

Russia got into the War, and that spelled the doom for Germany.
We developed Nuclear weapons and dropped a couple of them on Japan. They raised the white flag and capitulated.

After the War ended, the USA put together a program where free trade was protected by our military. Any country could trade freely with any other country. This allowed the entire World to trade in peace. The World became a better place.

 

[indysurfer]

Video of Gaza one week before the war.

Grotesque how Hamas supporters pretend that Gaza is an unbearable hell hole that warranted the atrocities on 10/7.

 

[wdolson]

The people who don't understand what antisemitism is are usually the loudest antisemites. Ideas are complicated.

Those who say they're unfairly called antisemites are always the loudest antisemites.

As I said before, just because someone is critical of the actions of the Israeli government, it does not mean they hate the Jewish people. The meme of criticism of the Israeli government being antisemitism is one that has been cultivated over the years to silence criticism of Israel.

There are people criticizing Israel who also hate the Jewish people, but there are also people criticizing Israel who are criticizing them they same way they would criticize the actions of any country doing the same thing. Israel has done some things that deserve criticism. It does not necessarily mean the person criticizing their actions has any ill will against Jewish people.

Nobody has clean hands in this conflict.

Antisemitism is on the rise, that Pandora's box was opened by people who have been encouraging racism in recent years. It is a problem that has some relation to this conflict, but antisemitism outside the Middle East is a bit different situation than the antisemitism driving this war in the ME.

But still it does not mean that a person who is critical of what Israel is doing right now in Gaza is automatically an antisemite. There is overlap of the Venn diagrams, but far from one to one.

 

[indysurfer]

Nobody has clean hands in this conflict.

Yeah - but one side's hands are much cleaner and have made efforts over and over again to negotiate final borders while the other side flatly refuses to accept the other's existence.

I don't buy the bothsideism argument.

Too many people in the West give intransigent Palestinians the false hope to keep fighting and refuse all compromise and somehow the Jews will disappear from Israel.

 

[indysurfer]

More video of Gaza before the war.

What a hell hole!

 

[Just a Reader]

Likud Party: Original Party Platform
(1977)
The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

Original Party Platform of the Likud Party

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Does anyone believe that the Likud has changed its position? Netanyahu certainly hasn't and he is on record for that. Let's not even talk about people like Ben-Gvir, a man convicted for terrorist offences.
Yet it's obvious that it's all the Palestinian's fault, not the fault of Israel that supports agressive settlers, who are not only taking other peoples' land, but are often killing Palestinians with impunity.

We never hear about the alternative to a two-state solution. What's it supposed to be? A continuation of the occupation with a suppression of all civil rights for the Palestinians?

 

[bhzmark]

where is the proof?

You asked for proof. I and many others provided it to you.

If it happened

And yet you are still taking the posture of “If it happened”? Are you a holocaust denier too? Where is the proof?

But you believe Hamas when they say that IDF bombed a hospital and killed 500? Without asking for proof. And then it turns out Hamas bombed their own hospital and 50 people died.

If you want to contribute something positive, try to suggest a solution instead of childish empty laughable pleas for proof and restating colonial/oppression/victim nonsense. Your current efforts are not remotely persuasive and just reinforce the view that palestinian supporters are either devote muslims blinded by their religion or immature sophomoric undergraduates or I guess, lingering antisemites, although I think the latter group is smaller than the other two.

 

[indysurfer]

We never hear about the alternative to a two-state solution. What's it supposed to be? A continuation of the occupation with a suppression of all civil rights for the Palestinians?

If you ask an average Palestinian (in the videos I linked above), they want to move all the Jews back to Germany, Poland and the US.