It's the Batteries, Stupid!

[Cosmacelf]

Well, the technology is real and scientifically sound. My two questions on it are how much power can you draw and cost. Here’s a three year old technology primer than I found which seems to provide some technical answers (the NDB website is slow today, no doubt high volume). FACT CHECK: Are Radioactive 'Diamond Batteries' a Real Thing?

However, I’ve got to say that I don’t like their way of getting private investors. Big red flag. If this company was real, a VC would have invested in them by now.

This is a fascinating technology, so I'm researching it a bit. Here are my thoughts as I work on it.

Radioisotope electric generators are not new. Deep space probes (like the ones heading out of the solar system right now) use them all the time since they can't rely on solar panels so far from the sun. RTGs use a different technology - they use the heat from radioactive decay to power a heat to electricity (thermoelectric) generator. One problem with radioisotope generators is that they continually produce heat and thus electricity. You can't turn them off. Spacecraft must have special equipment to dispose of any excess heat or electricity that is continually produced (especially on the ground before the spacecraft is launched).

Does this technology have the same problem? I would guess so. In which case, trying to replace iPhone batteries with it might not work well (gosh, I turned off my iPhone for a few days and it caught fire!). Likewise for *any* consumer device that doesn't continually draw a constant amount of power. Maybe you could get away with it in a car since it has enough surface area to radiate away heat if you just left it untouched for a long time.

Then we get into supply issue. Saying you'll use nuclear waste is all very fine, but there isn't enough nuclear waste to power much! Pretty soon, these guys will have to go to plan B which is creating their own carbon-14. Which isn't going to be cheap.

In an interview (Interview: The NDB team on its revolutionary nano-diamond batteries), they acknowledge some of these problems (like having to create their own radioactive elements).

BTW, in that interview, the executives always use the future tense when talking about their batteries. How far along, exactly, is this technology? All the images I see about the battery components themselves are renderings, not actual pictures.

Finally, the executive team does not fill me with warm and fuzzies. They have "serial entrepreneurs" who have never been involved in a startup that worked. They have consultants. They have a generic salesperson (who is in charge of "strategy", god help them). I think now I understand why no VC has funded them - this isn't a mgmt team worth funding.

I still like the idea, and in the interview they allude to other companies who are developing the same technology. I think I'll take a look and see if I can find a competitor...

 

[HenryFarkas]

This is a fascinating technology, so I'm researching it a bit. Here are my thoughts as I work on it.

Radioisotope electric generators are not new. Deep space probes (like the ones heading out of the solar system right now) use them all the time since they can't rely on solar panels so far from the sun. RTGs use a different technology - they use the heat from radioactive decay to power a heat to electricity (thermoelectric) generator. One problem with radioisotope generators is that they continually produce heat and thus electricity. You can't turn them off. Spacecraft must have special equipment to dispose of any excess heat or electricity that is continually produced (especially on the ground before the spacecraft is launched).

Does this technology have the same problem? I would guess so. In which case, trying to replace iPhone batteries with it might not work well (gosh, I turned off my iPhone for a few days and it caught fire!). Likewise for *any* consumer device that doesn't continually draw a constant amount of power. Maybe you could get away with it in a car since it has enough surface area to radiate away heat if you just left it untouched for a long time.

Then we get into supply issue. Saying you'll use nuclear waste is all very fine, but there isn't enough nuclear waste to power much! Pretty soon, these guys will have to go to plan B which is creating their own carbon-14. Which isn't going to be cheap.

In an interview (Interview: The NDB team on its revolutionary nano-diamond batteries), they acknowledge some of these problems (like having to create their own radioactive elements).

BTW, in that interview, the executives always use the future tense when talking about their batteries. How far along, exactly, is this technology? All the images I see about the battery components themselves are renderings, not actual pictures.

Finally, the executive team does not fill me with warm and fuzzies. They have "serial entrepreneurs" who have never been involved in a startup that worked. They have consultants. They have a generic salesperson (who is in charge of "strategy", god help them). I think now I understand why no VC has funded them - this isn't a mgmt team worth funding.

I still like the idea, and in the interview, they allude to other companies who are developing the same technology. I think I'll take a look and see if I can find a competitor...

I am not a physicist or a chemist, merely an old retired country doctor, so take my comment with the requisite grain of salt. The claim is that they combine the decay of carbon 14 to nitrogen and an electron. Apparently this actually happens, and the nitrogen isn't a radioactive isotope so it's legal to release that into the environment. Then they store the electrons in a supercapacitor, not exactly a battery. The problem with that is that if it were possible to make supercapacitors with enough storage capacity to drive a car a significant distance, we'd all have supercapacitors in our electric cars instead of lithium-ion batteries. So the problem with not driving a car for a long time is what to do with the extra electrons, not what to do with heat. The supercapacitor, despite the "super" prefix, isn't like Supergirl. It's just not that super. I suppose one could just hook the car up to the grid whenever it's parked for a long time and sell the energy to the electric company. But more likely, the battery will just take a very long time to recharge. I may be excessively pessimistic, but the old adage, "If something looks like it's too good to be true, it probably actually is too good to be true." probably applies to this battery concept.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Since this thread is about batteries...anyone know who/where Lucid is getting batteries from?
Seems like the perfect timing for Lucid's Air reveal and Tesla Battery day shortly after?
Probably already some talk of this I missed

 

[RobStark]

Since this thread is about batteries...anyone know who/where Lucid is getting batteries from?
Seems like the perfect timing for Lucid's Air reveal and Tesla Battery day shortly after?
Probably already some talk of this I missed

Lucid Motors Announces Partnership with LG Chem that Secures Battery Cells for Long-Term Volume Production of the Lucid Air

 

[JRP3]

Another radioactive diamond battery company, a bit more realistic than NDB:

They don’t put out enough juice to power a smartphone, but depending on the nuclear material they use, they can provide a steady drip of electricity to small devices for millennia.“Can we power an electric vehicle? The answer is no,” says Morgan Boardman, Arkenlight’s CEO. To power something that energy hungry, he says, means “the mass of the battery would be significantly greater than the mass of the vehicle.”

Are Radioactive Diamond Batteries a Cure for Nuclear Waste?

 

[Cosmacelf]

Another radioactive diamond battery company, a bit more realistic than NDB:

Are Radioactive Diamond Batteries a Cure for Nuclear Waste?

Thanks. As I suspected, the power density for carbon-14 batteries is very low. Specialized applications only, not for EVs or power hungry smartphones.

 

[JRP3]

Bill Gates-backed vehicle battery supplier to go public through SPAC deal

An electric vehicle battery supplier backed by Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates and Volkswagen is the newest automotive company to announce plans to go public through a special purpose acquisition company.

QuantumScape, a developer of what are known as solid-state batteries, said Thursday it has entered into a definitive agreement to merge with blank check SPAC Kensington Capital Acquisition Corp. to become a publicly traded company in the fourth quarter.

Good thread on QuantumScape's technology: https://twitter.com/jordi_sastr3/status/1301634546132307969?s=20

Their main claim is that they have achieved a functional "anodeless" battery using a solid-state electrolyte. By anodeless they don't mean that the battery uses no anode, but that the anode is formed in-situ with lithium coming out of the cathode during the first charge.

JB Straubel on the board: Our team is redefining the frontier of battery technology - QuantumScape

 

[ggies07]

Bill Gates-backed vehicle battery supplier to go public through SPAC deal



Good thread on QuantumScape's technology: https://twitter.com/jordi_sastr3/status/1301634546132307969?s=20



JB Straubel on the board: Our team is redefining the frontier of battery technology - QuantumScape

So why is JB at another battery company after spending all those years at Tesla? If Tesla is truly the leader in batteries and solid-state is "years away", why be on the board of a company with an inferior product?

 

[JRP3]

He's not really "at" the company, he doesn't work there, he's just on the board. I'd say he sees some promise in the technology even if it's not yet ready for prime time.

 

[ggies07]

He's not really "at" the company, he doesn't work there, he's just on the board. I'd say he sees some promise in the technology even if it's not yet ready for prime time.

Right, but he is still "overseeing" it....idk...odd to me....oh well, interesting none the less.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Right, but he is still "overseeing" it....idk...odd to me....oh well, interesting none the less.

I agree with JRP3, it really doesn’t mean much. Like almost all battery startups, they have advanced technology which may or may not develop into something commercial.

 

[bkp_duke]

I agree with JRP3, it really doesn’t mean much. Like almost all battery startups, they have advanced technology which may or may not develop into something commercial.

It's a board of directors position. I've had multiple. They just want "qualified" people on the board so that potential clients see they have the proper pedigree and take them seriously.

 

[JRP3]

Jason interviews Shirley Meng about silicon anodes

 

[uujjj2]

So what would be the overall difference in energy density, cost, and performance, between these batteries:

A: silicon-nanoparticle anode, gel electrolyte with a secret sauce of dendrite-preventing additives, using Maxwell's dry electrode manufacturing process

B: lithium metal anode, solid electrolyte

Assuming both batteries have the same or similar cathode materials?

Battery A is the speculation for what Tesla will announce this month, and battery B is what JB Straubel and QuantumScape are developing.

 

[JRP3]

I'm not expecting a gel electrolyte from Tesla, (though it's possible), and QuantumScape seems to be using a gel not a true solid. No idea on the costs of either, too many unknowns.

 

[uujjj2]

As you go from liquid to gel to solid electrolyte, you get higher resistance to the movement of charge carriers (sorta obvious). Also, the boundary between "liquid" and "gel" and between "gel" and "solid" can be a bit fuzzy.

On a side note, I'm really surprised how little speculation is going on here at TMC about battery day. I thought this thread would be lit up with all sorts of theories, but maybe this topic is just too technical for the average TMCer.

 

[bxr140]

On a side note, I'm really surprised how little speculation is going on here at TMC about battery day. I thought this thread would be lit up with all sorts of theories, but maybe this topic is just too technical for the average TMCer.

Lol.

There's a whole thread on it.

 

[Electroman]

but maybe this topic is just too technical for the average TMCer.

The kind of diverse talent you have here is just amazing. Nothing is too technical here.

"There are people here who can run circles around a room full of PhDs"

 

[uujjj2]

but maybe this topic is just too technical for the average TMCer.

I forgot the /s

"There are people here who can run circles around a room full of PhDs"

TMC is a room full of PhDs

(Ignore my 2020 join date. I've actually been on TMC since the OG Roadster days.)

 

[CyberGus]

...I'm really surprised how little speculation is going on here at TMC about battery day. I thought this thread would be lit up with all sorts of theories, but maybe this topic is just too technical for the average TMCer.

The Net'verse is swimming in Battery-Day speculation ("OMG ELON HINTS AT NUCLEAR FUSION! LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE"). Frankly I'm bored with the wild theories, content to await the Big Reveal.