I think the Panasonic agreement was for 80,000 cars worth of batteries. If their contract allows it, Tesla could look to Envia for some of their Model S battery packs allowing them to either decrease the cost or increase margins until the Panasonic agreement runs out.
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
Atul of Envia says they will work with multiple OEMs.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/02/envia-20120227/comments/page/2/#comments
The Envia piece covered in local news (well, local for its home base):
Startup announces big breakthrough for electric vehicle batteries - San Jose Mercury News
Startup announces big breakthrough for electric vehicle batteries - San Jose Mercury News
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I was a bit concerned to see he doesn't seem to understand that fast charging will require high C rates at the cell level, not advancements in charging equipment.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
He isn't as technical as I thought he would be. He deferred to his CTO on some questions. But mostly looks like he was thinking about discharge rates (because people asked about power density) rather than charge rates.
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This is where hybrid packs, like with Tesla's patent and what we discussed here before, come into play.
Does anyone know if someone has though of replacing the cells in the Roadster ESS sheets?
Of course, I'm not going to weld 6831 batteries together manually
I just wondered if it's possible to dismantle a sheet and replace the cells without damaging everything (and getting leaks etc.)
If it's feasible and Tesla still sells packs for $40000 2-3y from now - while the cell might come down to $1-$2 - someone might be interested in selling an "ESS cell refresh" service
Of course, I'm not going to weld 6831 batteries together manually
I just wondered if it's possible to dismantle a sheet and replace the cells without damaging everything (and getting leaks etc.)
If it's feasible and Tesla still sells packs for $40000 2-3y from now - while the cell might come down to $1-$2 - someone might be interested in selling an "ESS cell refresh" service
Does anyone know if someone has though of replacing the cells in the Roadster ESS sheets?
Of course, I'm not going to weld 6831 batteries together manually
I just wondered if it's possible to dismantle a sheet and replace the cells without damaging everything (and getting leaks etc.)
If it's feasible and Tesla still sells packs for $40000 2-3y from now - while the cell might come down to $1-$2 - someone might be interested in selling an "ESS cell refresh" service
I guess the problem would be getting the liquid cooled aspect of the battery packs working properly. Tesla is probably keeping those secrets close at hand.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
You can balance cells manually, I did on my car, of course it's a lot easier with 36 large format cells instead of many 18650's, but still possible. You just have to make sure they are all at the same voltage under the same current, add or subtract charge as needed. All the small cells in parallel will self balance and then you can treat each parallel set as a single larger cell and match that to the pack.
Norbert
TSLA will win
New 400 Wh/kg tech not limited to Envia. First wave expected in the 2014 or 2015 timeframe.
Green Car Congress: Envia Systems announcement may herald the first wave of DOE-supported commercial high energy density Li-ion cells with Si-C anodes
Green Car Congress: Envia Systems announcement may herald the first wave of DOE-supported commercial high energy density Li-ion cells with Si-C anodes
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The Si-C anode mentioned by that article is only one part of why the Envia cells get 400Wh/kg. Note that the 4000mah cell planned by Panasonic also uses Si-C anodes, so there is probably no way for Envia to claim that for themselves (because of prior art).
For Envia, there's also the high voltage electrolyte and the "manganese-rich" cathode. I think the more important IP for Envia is the cathode. There are plenty of different types of high voltage electrolytes, so I don't think it is that likely Envia can claim that either.
I have the feeling that "early" EV adopters (using that term loosely, since 2012 isn't exactly early relative to the EV1, Roadster, etc.) are always going to be looking in our rear-view mirrors and seeing "the next great battery tech" coming along. It reminds me of the first decade of the PC, when by the time you'd gotten your new PC delivered, Intel had already announced the next gen CPU. Bill Machrone, then-editor of PC Magazine, coined "Machrone's Law:" the PC you want always costs $5,000. That rule held has held for a long time; even today, you can buy high-end gaming PCs for -- $5,000!
Just like the 80286 CPU in the IBM AT, the batteries the Tesla uses in the Model S will become "last year's tech" pretty quickly -- but, I believe, battery tech improvements won't be quite as breathtaking as the power/price path of integrated circuits. The big difference is that the applications aren't evolving, too: one of my favorite aphorisms is "Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away." A lot of very productive work was accomplished on those early PCs, but as the OS and apps bloated, users needed ever-faster CPUs and ever-more RAM to remain productive.
With EVs, however, if an EV and its battery are good enough for you today, they will remain good enough for you next year (with due allowance for battery degradation). Roads are not going to get hillier over time, nor drag more severe.
Does the potential availability of better batteries in 2014 change my interest in buying a Model S in 2012? Of course, to a degree. But I learned with buying PCs throughout the 80s, 90s, and 00s that you can't wait forever for tech to mature -- at some point, you have to decide, NOW -- what's available is good enough, at a price I'm willing to pay. For me, Model S has hit that point -- it actually hit it 2 years ago, and I've been waiting impatiently ever since!
Just like the 80286 CPU in the IBM AT, the batteries the Tesla uses in the Model S will become "last year's tech" pretty quickly -- but, I believe, battery tech improvements won't be quite as breathtaking as the power/price path of integrated circuits. The big difference is that the applications aren't evolving, too: one of my favorite aphorisms is "Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away." A lot of very productive work was accomplished on those early PCs, but as the OS and apps bloated, users needed ever-faster CPUs and ever-more RAM to remain productive.
With EVs, however, if an EV and its battery are good enough for you today, they will remain good enough for you next year (with due allowance for battery degradation). Roads are not going to get hillier over time, nor drag more severe.
Does the potential availability of better batteries in 2014 change my interest in buying a Model S in 2012? Of course, to a degree. But I learned with buying PCs throughout the 80s, 90s, and 00s that you can't wait forever for tech to mature -- at some point, you have to decide, NOW -- what's available is good enough, at a price I'm willing to pay. For me, Model S has hit that point -- it actually hit it 2 years ago, and I've been waiting impatiently ever since!
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
My PC buying history always depended on the ability to upgrade, I'd get a mother board with head room and simply add a better processor, video card, and memory as they improved and became cheaper. As you say the "driving application" does not actually change so your current EV that meets your needs today will likely easily do so 5-10 years from now, and when it doesn't you can upgrade the platform and make it better than new, if you aren't ready for a completely new vehicle anyway. In that case it will go to someone else who can use it as is or upgrade it.
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