Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Julian Cox now on TMC

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA): Tesla's Painful Journey Into The Valley Of Death - Seeking Alpha


Finally some comedic relief from Petersen.

Generally the signal for a fresh rally.


Note: Q3 conference call - Fully validated disruptive business model: Cash-flow positive global hyper-expansion with no valid competition in sight funded by profits from sales of Model S (EU and Asia expansion completed to date with +$49 Million added to the bank account). That's the end of Bank of America's capital intensive mantra.

2014~2016 - supply bottleneck unblocked courtesy of Panasonic. The company is now focused on how to deliver 500,000 vehicles annually post 2017.

Lease Accounting a problem. NO. Baseless nonsense. 2013 Residual guarantees are non-redeemable until 2016. ALL of 2013 lease accountable sales represent between 1.6% 3.2% of 2016 turnover, and have NO possible effect on 2013 - 2016 cash-flows. In 2016 Tesla could afford to crush every car that was returned on a residual guarantee without making a noticeable dent in the current account. Harping on about it as an issue is disingenuous in the outer extreme.
 
Any thoughts on the current share price, Julian?


Well....

There is a part A, B and C to that.

Part A. I think it is a fair and honest reflection to state that the longest of longs could not genuinely imagine why the stock should rise above $194 ATH, and if $194 cannot be defended then how can $150 for example or any other figure for that matter. I think that Musk and co are clearly not currently interested in selling equity to raise capital and are likely more interested in scrambling to prevent convertible bond holders converting bonds into stock to prevent dilution of control. They tried it with hedging and then the stock kept going up. End result: Musk and co not currently interested in slamming the shorts or defending the stock price. Q3 Earnings was remarkable for its focus on long term and practically irrelevant negatives (the need to build a giant factory to supply cells for 500,000+ annual vehicle production. Basic group psychology would preclude harping on about such a thing in discussion of Q3 results. The opportunity to slam the shorts with the fact that Tesla is now in cash flow positive hyper expansion globally was readily available.

Part B. Dumping the stock on the basis of lowered expectations for the company's future is fully retarded. Ridiculous beyond all comprehension. The company has a monopoly on the future of transportation and just proved ALSO that its business model functions as expected and required to fund hypergrowth on internally generated cash. Fires? What a load of bull. I want a Model S, I will buy one as my net car to replace my BMW 750i and nothing that has occurred has given me any pause for thought on that subject. For goodness sake how can you compete with a car that has a 416Hp drive train unlike any other on the road? You have to go back to old and outdated technology to consider any other car and I will not do that because it is stupid. (I have a fax machine to sell anyone that is of a mind to disagree - it works just like email to transmit messages electronically with the added convenience that you can quickly refuel it with paper and toner cartridges - jeeez). My internal sanity check states simply no problem for Model S demand, Model X demand or Model E demand: Model S collides with BMW M5 - M5 totalled, Tesla passengers safe (same with Honda Civic but that does not really count - unless you happen to be an idiot claiming that the Nissan Leaf is somehow in contention, in which case I suspect the Leaf and the Civic drivers would have all been killed in a similar head-on rather than Civic passengers wiped out and Model S driver emotionally scarred only). Same with a Mexican driving through walls and hitting a tree etc. If I happen to be driving in a country that permits temporary trailer hitch installations (the USA for example) I might consider setting the suspension of my Model S a little higher as a precaution especially if I was on a lazy cruise and wanted to relax about it. Otherwise I would consider maintaining a longer distance between myself and the vehicles ahead in order to allow me the opportinity to avoid running over something lethal to low-to-the-ground cars like Ferarri, Lambo and Model S on low setting. I am guessing Lambo drivers are already familiar with the concept. As it happens, Tesla has released a firmware update 5.8 that sets the suspension higher - voila. Show's over guys - note that Tesla apparently intends to lead the autonomous driving revolution as well. More than likely they can come up with a system to spot road debris and raise the car automatically for firmware 5.9 or 6. Merc have a system for looking at the road ahead already and Kroeger (head of Merc electronics just so happens to be a Tesla Board Member).

Part C. The market exists to punish the complacent. Right now the complacency rests with the shorts - and the shorts NEVER had a business case and they don't have a business case now either. GAAP lease accounting - give me a break. If you want to punish the seller of luxury vehicles for selling cars on a basis that can be assessed for lease accounting then the more cars Tesla sells, the less the stock ought to be worth. Go figure, considering lease accountable sales is the business of luxury car sales for the most part. Especially considering that in the case of Tesla it gets the money the other manufacturers have to give away to their dealer networks - the commission for introducing their customers to 3rd party financiers like US Bank and Wells Fargo for example. The other thing to note is that GAAP Lease Accounting talks of a paper liability (residual guarantees) that cannot possibly bite Tesla's cash flows until 2016 at the earliest (3 years from a 2013 date of sale). In 2016 at current growth rates, ALL of 2013 lease accounting sales will represent no more than 3.2% of total revenues. I cannot believe that anyone is dumb enough to be fooled by the bear argument on this score - in 2016 perhaps 50% of the vehicles will be redeemed (1.6% of total revenues), those cars will be factory refurbished and resold (~0% of total revenues). It is a mathematical FACT that this is absolutely irrelevant - you want to sell or short on that basis? Really? Sure go ahead, but remember that the greater fool on this score is the short.

TSLA @ $120. I do not know if this is the bottom. I suspect so, but I do not know so. I think the signs of short-complacency are setting in, maybe we will see $110 to $115. Is $120 good value for the buy and hold investor: YES, DEFINITELY. This I do know. The catalyst for the next rally may perhaps be official NTHSA clearance. The Price Target ought to be $184 for the relatively short term, above that level Tesla is exposed to bond conversion.

Footnote: This is Tesla's internal sales figure targets for 2017, 2018 and 2019. 200K, 400K, 700K (Vehicles). Reference: JB Straubel | Energy@Stanford SLAC 2013 - YouTube (minute 22:09).
Remembering that this is a company that has proven itself capable of setting these goals on cash flow positive internally generated cash, not debt, not dulution. To sell or short this stock is to sell or short absolutely the number one most valuable growth stock that has been in existence for the past 100 years. While one must be on guard for irrationality, there is no rational reason to do that. JC.

Screen Shot 2013-11-21 at 03.57.10.jpg
 
A little something for the weekend:

Tesla: A Comprehensive Review of Leading FUD Touchpoints


Tesla: A Comprehensive Review of Leading FUD Touchpoints | Investnaire: Focused Investing to Millionaire

Includes:

- Battery Safety

- Cell Supply Constraint

- Giga facory vs Capex

- GAAP Lease Accounting

- Environmental credentials

- Fuel Cell Vehicles

- Production Projections

- Profitability

- Full discussion on the definition of disruptive technologies


Yes I am sick of reading a diet of unmitigated and erroneous FUD on the subject of Tesla.

JC
 
Last edited:
A little something for the weekend:

Tesla: A Comprehensive Review of Leading FUD Touchpoints


Tesla: A Comprehensive Review of Leading FUD Touchpoints | Investnaire: Focused Investing to Millionaire

Includes:

- Battery Safety

- Cell Supply Constraint

- Giga facory vs Capex

- GAAP Lease Accounting

- Environmental credentials

- Fuel Cell Vehicles

- Production Projections

- Profitability

- Full discussion on the definition of disruptive technologies


Yes I am sick of reading a diet of unmitigated and erroneous FUD on the subject of Tesla.

JC


Wow thanks looking forward to reading it!

Update:

Thank you for posting such a comprehensive take down of all the FUD out there. Sometimes even the most devoted investors/fans, like myself (held since 21) can get sidetracked by all the FUD and lose the conviction to stay the course and hold on. This piece helped me to once again see the path to the amazing success story that Tesla will be in a decade, so thank you for that!

I especially liked the part where you talked about GAAP/lease accounting and it made me think about valuation. The debate about Teslas valuation has always been about how many cars they are going to sell at a given time, and sure this will most likely be the case for a long time to come, but I would like to hear your opinion on the many side projects that Tesla has started and what these additional revenue streams can add to the company in the long run. I am especially thinking about the huge potential the company has in being the go to place for customers looking for used Teslas. I mean just look at the huge profits the independent dealerships make from the sale of used vehicles, something that the regular manufacturers are locked out from but Tesla has basically set up a chance for monopoly on due to the lease/buyback plans. If tesla can get just a 30% market share in the used Tesla market due to the lease/buyback plans this can be a multi billion dollar business in the long run.
Other additional revenue streams that could be game changing are things such as the recently announced battery backup systems for solar/wind/hydro power as well as backup power for power outages as well as energy rate arbitrage. In my mind this could be an even bigger possibility than the car business itself. None of this is priced in IMO and I dont think any of the debates out there are even talking about the potential of these "side projects".

I would love to hear your thoughts on this!

Thanks!

Chris
 
Last edited:
Chris, thanks for the great response.

Regards the second hand market, I am confident that any vehicle that Tesla takes in will be factory refurbished, upgraded with new options, probably a new pack with the old pack going to SCTY, and the factory approved vehicle sold at a profit. The main point of doing that would be to set a floor on the residual value.

The real take home message comes from looking at this in the context of a business that is expanding new vehicle production exponentially by close to 100% annually every year to at least 2018. The total number of 2013 vehicles eligible for residual starting in 2016 is so small compared to the total 2016 production of new vehicles that it is completely insignificant. The same is true of 2016 vehicles eligible for residual in 2019 - ~3% of the total value. It is desperate FUD to suggest that the GAAP treatment of these residuals is significant because it isn't.

Battery back up for solar is significant in my opinion. Very significant indeed. As I wrote in my first article, the pre-planned ability to swap out an old battery pack for a new one does give Tesla a multi $Billion market in selling upgraded batteries to its entire installed base of customers. Lets say for example a 500 mile range pack offered in 2017. The key facilitator for that business is the ability to create a market to sell the minimally used vehicle packs to SCTY for rest-of-life use in distributed grid storage, where the value of the ex-vehicle packs is measurable in MWh throughput. This is a source of pure additional billable revenue for SCTY that would otherwise have been lost to grid suppliers.

By my (rough) calculations. 2500 cycles remaining x 85000 Wh pack = 212.5 Megawatt hour throughput. That's 212,500 kWh billable at let's say $0.10 cents per kWh. That is $21,250 value remaining in an ex vehicle pack after 3 years and 45,000 miles traveled in a Model S. Lets say SCTY pays Tesla $10,000 for that pack and the 2017 base cost of manufacture of a 160kWh 500-mile pack in 2017 is $16,000, now net cost $6,000. I wonder how many Model S owners would turn down the chance of upgrading the utility and value of their vehicles with a brand new 500 mile range pack at 67% gross margin to Tesla ($10K). Probably not so many. Let's say we have 75% take up across a fleet of circa 120,000 vehicles produced from 2013~2016. That's an injection of $0.9 Billion USD containing $603 Million of profit.

End result: SCTY gets a fully-engineered and armoured home-safe pack with onboard electronics prepped and ready to report its state to their central maintenance and billing systems. That pack is available to SCTY with >90% of its original capacity at a fraction of the cost of building an equivalent pack from scratch. At the same time Tesla gets the ability to offer its customers a great trade in value for an old pack when selling the 400 ~ 500-mile upgrade, maximising both customer value and profits in that transaction. This is pure environmental and economic magic and I strongly believe it was designed into the TSLA and SCTY business models from the outset.
 
Any suggestion that “safety cells” that max out at around 130 kWh/Kg are of any commercial relevance compared with Tesla’s 234 kWh/Kg NCA is FUD.

Should be "Wh/Kg", and Elon recently said the cells were 250 Wh/Kg, in comparison to the lower density cells SolarCity was using for backup power which are 200 Wh/Kg.
 
Should be "Wh/Kg", and Elon recently said the cells were 250 Wh/Kg, in comparison to the lower density cells SolarCity was using for backup power which are 200 Wh/Kg.

True - thanks for the extra proof read! Right now SCTY and TSLA is opening up the market for grid storage and gaining customer experience and credibility. I believe this is a sensible opening gambit prior to introducing ex vehicle packs into the mix.
 
Thanks. I particularly like it that you correctly refer to the lessons from the Innovator's Dilemma. Over the past ten years or so, I attended lots of "innovation" courses at my employer, and lots of these stuffed shirt presenters refer to the lessons incorrectly. Basically they just make stuff up, and claim that it must be right, Christensen said it. It was a revelation to me when I read the actual book ("in the original Greek" I like to joke). This helped me recognize early on just how Tesla met the definition of disruptive, and indirectly made me a lot of money ;-).
 
Request to moderators:

Would you please consider moving this thread to the TSLA Investor Discussions forum, and renaming it Articles/megaposts by Julian Cox? (similar to the threads for DaveT and Sleepyhead)

I think this thread belongs there rather than here in Off Topic.
 
Thanks. I particularly like it that you correctly refer to the lessons from the Innovator's Dilemma. Over the past ten years or so, I attended lots of "innovation" courses at my employer, and lots of these stuffed shirt presenters refer to the lessons incorrectly. Basically they just make stuff up, and claim that it must be right, Christensen said it. It was a revelation to me when I read the actual book ("in the original Greek" I like to joke). This helped me recognize early on just how Tesla met the definition of disruptive, and indirectly made me a lot of money ;-).


Many thanks, and agreed, it bothers me that the term 'disruptive' has been adopted as a business buzz word and idealized as a business goal, as such I think it has done much more harm than good. Musk and co do not appear to suffer any such misunderstanding and as a result Tesla really does stand to fundamentally change the value proposition surrounding private transport to one in which clunky engines and the requirement to depend on gas stations selling high-priced fuel begins to lose relevance and appeal.

It is also very frustrating to see Tesla misquoted as a member of a group of industry peers alongside Ford, GM, VW, BMW etc. when core technology and business model are intentionally diametrically opposite by design.
Was Apple and its iPod ever considered an industry peer with Sony and its CD Walkman? Perhaps, but that would have been an error.
 
Nothing like a good Julian Cox post, thank you.

Request to moderators:

Would you please consider moving this thread to the TSLA Investor Discussions forum, and renaming it Articles/megaposts by Julian Cox? (similar to the threads for DaveT and Sleepyhead)

I think this thread belongs there rather than here in Off Topic.

+1, it's easy to miss these over here in Off Topic.
 
Request to moderators:

Would you please consider moving this thread to the TSLA Investor Discussions forum, and renaming it Articles/megaposts by Julian Cox? (similar to the threads for DaveT and Sleepyhead)

I think this thread belongs there rather than here in Off Topic.

I offered to Julian back in August that we move this to the Investor section but he preferred the lower profile here. We'd be happy to give Julian a thread like sleepy and DaveT where he could post his articles for discussion. I'm happy to raise it with him again, but we also respect that Julian has lots going on and that he may prefer to stay as he is.
 
Julian-

Thanks for the excellent and comprehensive FUD rebuttal.

One question:

"Ford would then need to insist that from then on, its customers must reserve Ford vehicles and pay cash up front (or arrange credit up front with Ford as beneficiary) and then wait for delivery, thereby enabling Ford to operate purely on the credit terms available from its suppliers and free itself from sinking any of its own capital in the production of finished vehicles. - See more at: http://www.investnaire.com/?q=groups/tesla-comprehensive-review-leading-fud-touchpoints#sthash.PyeTQxEh.dpuf"

Here and in other of your articles you imply that customers pay for the car in full at the time of ordering, when in fact there is only a small $2500 deposit placed, with the rest paid at delivery.

Am I misunderstanding your intent or are you mistaken?

Thanks again for all your work.
 
I offered to Julian back in August that we move this to the Investor section but he preferred the lower profile here. We'd be happy to give Julian a thread like sleepy and DaveT where he could post his articles for discussion. I'm happy to raise it with him again, but we also respect that Julian has lots going on and that he may prefer to stay as he is.

Well dammit, Julian, it would be more convenient for your eager readers if you posted in the Investment forum where you belong. :smile: Like MikeC, I keep forgetting to check here in Off Topic.
 
Julian-

Thanks for the excellent and comprehensive FUD rebuttal.

One question:

"Ford would then need to insist that from then on, its customers must reserve Ford vehicles and pay cash up front (or arrange credit up front with Ford as beneficiary) and then wait for delivery, thereby enabling Ford to operate purely on the credit terms available from its suppliers and free itself from sinking any of its own capital in the production of finished vehicles. - See more at: http://www.investnaire.com/?q=groups/tesla-comprehensive-review-leading-fud-touchpoints#sthash.PyeTQxEh.dpuf"

Here and in other of your articles you imply that customers pay for the car in full at the time of ordering, when in fact there is only a small $2500 deposit placed, with the rest paid at delivery.

Am I misunderstanding your intent or are you mistaken?

Thanks again for all your work.


Mark, thank you.

Tesla cars are paid in full before Tesla needs to pay its suppliers for the materials to make the car. There is a deposit that secures the position in the production list, there is the purchase contract that is concluded when locking in specifications, and there is the payment on delivery. The suppliers are paid on average 12.5 days later - the sale is cash flow positive.

This is as opposed to Ford carrying its supply chain on credit for 175.5 days on average after the cost of production.

(CCC analysis performed by 'Renim').

- - - Updated - - -

Well dammit, Julian, it would be more convenient for your eager readers if you posted in the Investment forum where you belong. :smile: Like MikeC, I keep forgetting to check here in Off Topic.


Well I dropped Nigel a note asking for instructions.


Meanwhile will someone please deal with this revolting FUD piece: http://seekingalpha.com/article/1884701-tesla-motors-has-30-downside-lululemons-key-to-earnings-and-whats-next-for-the-market


For sure you can calculate a net present valuation of $100 per share for TSLA based on 90K production in 2017. This is called garbage in garbage out.

Tesla's PUBLISHED guidance for 2017 is 200,000 vehicles (JB Straubel Tesla CTO September 2013).

Does that by any chance change the result? yes you betcha! 200/90 * 100 = $222.22 that seems to be 60% upside today without accounting for the extra profitability. Gentlemen. Fill your boots!
 
nice to see it over 140 again, any idea what the catalysts are today?

Catalysts, absolutely no clear idea. Maybe a better market mood with the jobs report. Maybe the FUD is getting old, rotting and starting to smell. It was clearly an overreaction (lucky spell for shorts) to see prices down in the $120s and $130s.

I have to say though I just read a quote from Lyndon Rive of SCTY that stated plainly: It is our long term plan to offer TSLA batteries with every solar installation.

This is BIG, BIG news for TSLA in terms of end of life value for Model S packs and opening up the fleet-wide upgrade market for Tesla (see the article Tesla: A Comprehensive Review of Leading FUD Touchpoints | Investnaire: Focused Investing to Millionaire) but IMO this is too sophisticated a point for the market to truly catch on to the significance of it yet.



JC