Karma -vs- Model S

[DuncanWatson]

I don't see any compromise in a 300 mile range Model S. The Fisker Karma on the other hand costs more and performs worse than the Model S. Obviously Fisker was delivering cars about 10 months before the Model S is going to start shipping but that seems the only positive.

cost: Model S
speed: Model S
Acceleration: Model S
Passengers: Model S
Cargo Space: Model S
Range: Karma edges out the Model S based solely on the ability to refill at a gas station.
Software: Model S
etc.

I can see why some people with money to burn and severe range anxiety would buy one but for anyone who wants an EV, the Model S is clearly the superior car. I think in two or three years when the waiting list for the Model S calms down a bit I see it becoming a very popular car.

 

[vfx]

I don't see any compromise in a 300 mile range Model S. The Fisker Karma on the other hand costs more and performs worse than the Model S. Obviously Fisker was delivering cars about 10 months before the Model S is going to start shipping but that seems the only positive.

cost: Model S
speed: Model S
Acceleration: Model S
Passengers: Model S
Cargo Space: Model S
Range: Karma edges out the Model S based solely on the ability to refill at a gas station.
Software: Model S
etc.

I can see why some people with money to burn and severe range anxiety would buy one but for anyone who wants an EV, the Model S is clearly the superior car. I think in two or three years when the waiting list for the Model S calms down a bit I see it becoming a very popular car.

Striking looks: Karma
Sumptuous Interior: Karma
Frunk Space: Model S

Model S still "wins" 2 to 1

 

[AnOutsider]

I dunno about that interior. Depends on what you choose I think. The ones I got in we're hideous IMO and that battery tunnel made me feel very uncomfortable.

 

[doug]

I think the interior materials are nice. Feel nice to the touch. Bit cramped, tough.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Its a matter of taste, but I felt 'hugged' by the interior rather than 'cramped' - ditto on rear seats as well. Exterior styling, no contest in my opinion.

And right now, for me at least, the Model S doesn't allow me the freedom to live my life the way I live it - impromptu road trips, a longer visit or drive around town to visit friends in nearby Orange County, San Diego or Santa Barbara. As I've said before, if you're looking for a second car, the Model S is fantastic. Lots of cool tech. Plus you'll have your conventional ICE car when you need to go somewhere that is either far, lacking fast charging stations, or if your day is uncertain and you want the freedom to whimsically drive somewhere. The Karma isn't a great 'EV' given its limited battery-only range and weight; however, it does give you some of the key benefits of EVs in that for your more pedestrian uses, like commuting to/fro work, you can do so entirely gas-free just as you would in the Model S. Its that very flexibility that gives you freedom. Commute around town in electric-only mode? No problem (Karma yes, Model S yes). Drive to San Francisco along the coast? Absolutely (Karma yes, Model S maybe, if the right charging stations are available). Knowing you don't have to be anxious about running out of juice or feeling the need to plan your trip around the location and availability of charging stations: priceless (Karma yes, Model S no no no). That's the fundamental difference between the Karma and the Model S. Both are great cars. Both deserve to be successful. Both have their own, slightly different niches.

 

[vfx]

I think the interior materials are nice. Feel nice to the touch. Bit cramped, tough.

Exactly, sumptuous.

Who has the top speed win?

 

[dsm363]

Its a matter of taste, but I felt 'hugged' by the interior rather than 'cramped' - ditto on rear seats as well. Exterior styling, no contest in my opinion.

And right now, for me at least, the Model S doesn't allow me the freedom to live my life the way I live it - impromptu road trips, a longer visit or drive around town to visit friends in nearby Orange County, San Diego or Santa Barbara. As I've said before, if you're looking for a second car, the Model S is fantastic. Lots of cool tech. Plus you'll have your conventional ICE car when you need to go somewhere that is either far, lacking fast charging stations, or if your day is uncertain and you want the freedom to whimsically drive somewhere. The Karma isn't a great 'EV' given its limited battery-only range and weight; however, it does give you some of the key benefits of EVs in that for your more pedestrian uses, like commuting to/fro work, you can do so entirely gas-free just as you would in the Model S. Its that very flexibility that gives you freedom. Commute around town in electric-only mode? No problem (Karma yes, Model S yes). Drive to San Francisco along the coast? Absolutely (Karma yes, Model S maybe, if the right charging stations are available). Knowing you don't have to be anxious about running out of juice or feeling the need to plan your trip around the location and availability of charging stations: priceless (Karma yes, Model S no no no). That's the fundamental difference between the Karma and the Model S. Both are great cars. Both deserve to be successful. Both have their own, slightly different niches.

I agree. Very different cars. While I understand why people compare them, I don't think it makes a lot of sense as they are two different cars for many reasons.

Few questions:

1) How often do you take round trips over 240 miles?
2) What is the furthest you drive (total distance) in a normal day (not taking a road trip)?

If the Karma is your only car and you take trips often, it makes sense for a car like the Karma. Someone who only takes maybe one long trip a month (and that had the parking space) could actually get a 85 kWh Model S and a Jetta for the price of the Karma. I have only taken three trips over 200 miles in the last 3.5 years so I'm thinking of selling my Jetta when the Model S arrives. I'll just have to rent (or borrow a friend's car) an ICE for the 1-2 times a year I need it. Really good to hear things from a Karma owner's perspective. Thanks.

 

[doug]

Who has the top speed win?

Karma advertises 125 mph.

Model S advertises 110, 120, 125, and 130 mph for 40, 60, 85kWh, and Performance versions, respectively.

 

[AnOutsider]

Karma advertises 125 mph.

Model S advertises 110, 120, 125, and 130 mph for 40, 60, 85kWh, and Performance versions, respectively.

Might also be prudent to compare how fast it takes to actually reach that top speed. With the acceleration in the Karma, you may run out of road by then.

 

[SoCalGuy]

I agree. Very different cars. While I understand why people compare them, I don't think it makes a lot of sense as they are two different cars for many reasons.

Few questions:

1) How often do you take round trips over 240 miles?
2) What is the furthest you drive (total distance) in a normal day (not taking a road trip)?

If the Karma is your only car and you take trips often, it makes sense for a car like the Karma. Someone who only takes maybe one long trip a month (and that had the parking space) could actually get a 85 kWh Model S and a Jetta for the price of the Karma. I have only taken three trips over 200 miles in the last 3.5 years so I'm thinking of selling my Jetta when the Model S arrives. I'll just have to rent (or borrow a friend's car) an ICE for the 1-2 times a year I need it. Really good to hear things from a Karma owner's perspective. Thanks.

My situation is different than most in that I use my car once/twice a month when I'm in LA. Those weekends, I do easily put a few hundred miles on my Karma. Last weekend for example, I was in San Diego for the day on Saturday, so that was around 340 miles or so roundtrip, plus about 25-30 miles or so of city driving within the San Diego area. So call that about 375ish miles. It was great to not have to worry about whether or not I would 'make it' there and back, or whether or not I needed to plug in a for a few hours while I was in town with friends. It was so freeing! Also, it was great not having to worry about babying the car to preserve range - some of my friends hadn't seen my Karma, so they wanted to experience the acceleration, handling, etc, so I was able to drive the car to its full potential without worrying about using too much juice/range.

 

[dsm363]

That makes total sense for you then. Glad you're enjoying the Karma. I hope they can get the bugs worked out as it is a very cool looking car.

 

[rsquared99]

But as long as it still has Jack Nicholson's smile, it will always make my stomach turn.

 

[vfx]

Karma advertises 125 mph.

Model S advertises 110, 120, 125, and 130 mph for 40, 60, 85kWh, and Performance versions, respectively.

Thanks Doug. Did not know that.

So that's:

Max speed: Model S sport



I can get to max 65 pretty quick on the freeway here.

 

[DrTaras]

It was great to not have to worry about whether or not I would 'make it' there and back

Gulp... you are talking about the Karma aren't you?
Ok, sorry, low blow. :redface:
Beautiful looking car & this from a guy who had rezi# 80 on a Karma.
Wish Fisker nothing but the best of luck.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Gulp... you are talking about the Karma aren't you?
Ok, sorry, low blow. :redface:
Beautiful looking car & this from a guy who had rezi# 80 on a Karma.
Wish Fisker nothing but the best of luck.

Haha, well yes. I've put over 1,700 miles or so on my Karma and haven't had any mechanical issues - car has always started for me without problems and I've never had a gear-shift or loss of power or anything like that (knock on wood!). My sense is that all people hear are the folks that have serious problems - those of us with no major issues other than the small bugs (like the Command Center quirks) have remained more or less silent/absent from the press and many of the forums. And I think even folks in the latter camp, sometimes complain due to a mismatch of expectations. Yes the Karma is a $100K+car but it is BRAND NEW from a BRAND NEW company, so we've all learned to be a bit more patient than in this were a $100K car from Mercedes, BMW or Audi.

We'll see how the Model S fares when it debuts, and I hope that the media is more forgiving with Tesla than its been with Fisker.

 

[SoCalGuy]

But as long as it still has Jack Nicholson's smile, it will always make my stomach turn.

Have you seen the Karma in person? The joker smile isn't nearly as joker-ish and fits quite well. I would like to swap out the vertical slats with the mesh that they've shown on the Sunset/Surf and Atlantic. Looks a bit more aggressive.

I'll say that the Karma is really one of those special cars that you have to see in person to fully appreciate. Pictures just don't do it justice!

 

[smorgasbord]

Have you seen the Karma in person?

Seen, touched, & been a passenger.

From some angles,it's quite nice - from others it's awkward. My first impression was that it's very long. If my Roadster wasn't nearby it would have seemed low too, but as it was it didn't tower over the Roadster like most cars do. It's the only car I've seen so far that makes Roadster's styling look dated, so I've got to give it props for that (btw, many exotics are more 1970's modern, which to me is even more dated than Roadster). From the side, the length, wheel size, and swoopyness make it seem a bit like an old racehorse or reacedog with a bad back. Head on also not so nice given the grille: The 2/3 angle is probably its best angle.

Inside, the first impression is "where did all the space go?" The second impression is that it's trimmed out luxuriously. But, the doors are high, the center console is very high, the back seats are only 2+2 capacity. The trunk makes the Roadster's trunk seem cavernous given the relative size of the cars themselves. Since the Roadster itself is cramped, the Karma's interior was very comfortable for me. I liked the PRND control.

Driving wise, it feels very solid. Reminded me of a Bentley - smooth, quiet, heavy, but the low-end torque gives a nice brisk feeling and the car rides quite flatly, which is good. The owner didn't push it hard around corners or anything. He fits the profile for the car's practicality well: retired technology exec, most trips under 35 miles, does do the occasional long trip to SoCal, kids drive their own, has other cars for family trips, etc. Oh, and he also has a Model S Sig on order, so it'll be interesting to hear his thoughts once he has both in his stable.

I think hybrids like the Volt, PiP, and Karma are great. They will help people realize just how far they really need to drive on a charge, which will help them get into pure BEV's later on. For now, I hope Fisker can survive the string of bad luck they've been having. That the cars are high priced will help in that regard - potential owners will be more sophisticated and more willing to look beyond Fox News' yellow journalism.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Seen, touched, & been a passenger.

From some angles,it's quite nice - from others it's awkward. My first impression was that it's very long. If my Roadster wasn't nearby it would have seemed low too, but as it was it didn't tower over the Roadster like most cars do. It's the only car I've seen so far that makes Roadster's styling look dated, so I've got to give it props for that (btw, many exotics are more 1970's modern, which to me is even more dated than Roadster). From the side, the length, wheel size, and swoopyness make it seem a bit like an old racehorse or reacedog with a bad back. Head on also not so nice given the grille: The 2/3 angle is probably its best angle.

Inside, the first impression is "where did all the space go?" The second impression is that it's trimmed out luxuriously. But, the doors are high, the center console is very high, the back seats are only 2+2 capacity. The trunk makes the Roadster's trunk seem cavernous given the relative size of the cars themselves. Since the Roadster itself is cramped, the Karma's interior was very comfortable for me. I liked the PRND control.

Driving wise, it feels very solid. Reminded me of a Bentley - smooth, quiet, heavy, but the low-end torque gives a nice brisk feeling and the car rides quite flatly, which is good. The owner didn't push it hard around corners or anything. He fits the profile for the car's practicality well: retired technology exec, most trips under 35 miles, does do the occasional long trip to SoCal, kids drive their own, has other cars for family trips, etc. Oh, and he also has a Model S Sig on order, so it'll be interesting to hear his thoughts once he has both in his stable.

I think hybrids like the Volt, PiP, and Karma are great. They will help people realize just how far they really need to drive on a charge, which will help them get into pure BEV's later on. For now, I hope Fisker can survive the string of bad luck they've been having. That the cars are high priced will help in that regard - potential owners will be more sophisticated and more willing to look beyond Fox News' yellow journalism.

Ah, is your friend Dennis by chance? I've seen him post the side by side with his Karma and your Roadster...

 

[wiztecy]

"Ah, is your friend Dennis by chance? I've seen him post the side by side with his Karma and your Roadster... "

Funny I came across this, possibly you're mentioning about this or a similar pic of my friend Marshall who owns the burgundy Karma my Radiant Red Roadster (my name is Dennis by the way). I have to say for a car 5k+ in weight, the Karma handles really really well. Marshall drove me in his in stealth mode to be fair and we took an offramp fishhook ad a good speed and it held in there! I do agree, the karma length and weight give it a solid and stable ride.

 

[vfx]

... My sense is that all people hear are the folks that have serious problems - those of us with no major issues other than the small bugs (like the Command Center quirks) have remained more or less silent/absent from the press and many of the forums. And I think even folks in the latter camp, sometimes complain due to a mismatch of expectations. Yes the Karma is a $100K+car but it is BRAND NEW from a BRAND NEW company, so we've all learned to be a bit more patient than in this were a $100K car from Mercedes, BMW or Audi. ....

All this sounds vaguely familiar... Exactly vauegly familiar....