Karma -vs- Model S

[AnOutsider]

Henrik wanted to design a car without comprome, and has succeeded at that

I keep hearing this, but what does it REALLY mean beyond marketing speak? What would have been compromised by the 4" higher roofline? What would have been gained? For the latter, lower center of gravity and more interior (and trunk) space for one and two. The reason for the exhaust in the front is what? Because of the tunnel? It seems to me that the design compromised the engineering.

 

[strider]

I keep hearing this, but what does it REALLY mean beyond marketing speak? What would have been compromised by the 4" higher roofline? What would have been gained? For the latter, lower center of gravity and more interior (and trunk) space for one and two. The reason for the exhaust in the front is what? Because of the tunnel? It seems to me that the design compromised the engineering.

Without needing to run the exhaust all the way back the occupants can sit lower and thereby have a lower roofline (to answer Doug's question). A flat battery pack and/or rear exhaust would have meant the seats would have to be higher and therefore require a higher roofline.

 

[vfx]

Is the fisker a front wheel drive?

 

[doug]

Is the fisker a front wheel drive?

I'd assume you'd know the answer to that, so I can't tell if you're joking and if you are, what joke you're making.

Anyhow, the answer is no. The Karma is RWD, electric drive only. The ICE only connects to the generator as seen here: Fisker Karma

 

[GSP]

i just can't bring myself to respect the engineering on the karma. Those pics just further the impression i have of the car being cobbled together.

+1

gsp

 

[vfx]

I'd assume you'd know the answer to that, so I can't tell if you're joking and if you are, what joke you're making.Anyhow, the answer is no. The Karma is RWD, electric drive only. The ICE only connects to the generator as seen here: Fisker Karma

Yeah a bad driveshaft quip.

I guess the Fisker's "Driveshaft" bringing power from the engine back to the rear wheels (via a motor) is made of lithium and copper.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

They should have added a driveshaft going back to the front and made it a front wheel drive. That would have almost made it comple

 

[vfx]

Doug's Fisker link led me to this:

http://www.tesla-buzz.com/forums/

Only one single post not by the admin.

 

[ljbad4life]

They should have added a driveshaft going back to the front and made it a front wheel drive. That would have almost made it comple

I know you are joking, but have you looked under the hood of a Karma? There is no room left even for rubrics cube to fit in there. The rest of the car is like that. Have you seen the electric motors in the Karma? the ones that are the size of.... a really big thing:biggrin:?

 

[AnOutsider]

Doug's Fisker link led me to this:

http://www.tesla-buzz.com/forums/

Only one single post not by the admin.

Yeah, it was posted about a while back because they were just copying TMC posts to get things started. There are a few people @ Fisker Buzz interested in the S, but not enough to sustain a forum. As for the others?

Fairly obvious where they'll land

 

[DuncanWatson]

Fisker's stated no-compromise design is quite amusing. In the recumbent speed-bike world there is a bike that is named the nocom for no compromises. Users and racers of that bike call it the allcom because it is all compromises and has a number of design and manufacturing flaws. It is a good idea that was implemented poorly.

Fisker managed to mimic that bike's philosophy perfectly. It had a goal that caused it to make numerous compromises, many of which were bad trade-offs, and then added to the design issues with poor manufacturing process and procedures causing quality problems.

 

[smoothoperator]

Fisker's stated no-compromise design is quite amusing. In the recumbent speed-bike world there is a bike that is named the nocom for no compromises. Users and racers of that bike call it the allcom because it is all compromises and has a number of design and manufacturing flaws. It is a good idea that was implemented poorly.

Fisker managed to mimic that bike's philosophy perfectly. It had a goal that caused it to make numerous compromises, many of which were bad trade-offs, and then added to the design issues with poor manufacturing process and procedures causing quality problems.

I do not think this is accurate...Tesla has also been using the "No Compromise" marketing for a while as well..The Roadster is full of compromises and initially had as many problems as the Karma. It is easy to pile on and have a selective memory about the growing pains of Tesla. These problems are par for the course with new car companies.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I do not think this is accurate...Tesla has also been using the "No Compromise" marketing for a while as well..The Roadster is full of compromises and initially had as many problems as the Karma. It is easy to pile on and have a selective memory about the growing pains of Tesla. These problems are par for the course with new car companies.

Take a tiny thing like a lotus and try to change it to an EV and you're gonna run into some problems and many compromises.
Building a car from scratch w/ proper modeling software and good engineers and compromises and problems should be minimized. (just don't put too many engineers together or you might have more problems ;>)

 

[DuncanWatson]

I do not think this is accurate...Tesla has also been using the "No Compromise" marketing for a while as well..The Roadster is full of compromises and initially had as many problems as the Karma. It is easy to pile on and have a selective memory about the growing pains of Tesla. These problems are par for the course with new car companies.

This is yet another reason why the Model S is so superior to the Fisker Karma. We aren't comparing the Roadster to the Karma but the Model S.

 

[smoothoperator]

This is yet another reason why the Model S is so superior to the Fisker Karma. We aren't comparing the Roadster to the Karma but the Model S.

From your previous comment you were comparing the Fisker to a Motorbike...I do not think anyone on TMC has driven or currently has taken delivery of a Model S. Is it not premature to start singing the praises of a car you have not driven? A new car company will have glitches, I am sure the Model S will have its share of problems. "No Compromises" is a pretty cliche'd statement that almost every EV manufacturer has used.

Duncan, if you have driven a Model S or own one, I would love to hear your feedback on the vehicle... I am anxiously awaiting my Model S and would love to know first hand, how great it is!

 

[DuncanWatson]

I was comparing the design of the fisker Karma to the Velokraft no-com recumbent bicycle (not motorbike).

A bike that Kamil at Velokraft produced that though called a nocom (no compromise) instead was the embodiement of compromise. The Fisker Karma is the same with it front exhaust, center tunnel and disappointing performance.

The NoCom had similar issues, it was not as stiff as it should be causing power loss, it had manufacturing issues so each bike ended up being unique and with unique problems. None of these stopped some racers from setting records with it, though none stand today. The Fisker is similarly disappointing.

 

[ljbad4life]

I do not think this is accurate...Tesla has also been using the "No Compromise" marketing for a while as well..The Roadster is full of compromises and initially had as many problems as the Karma. It is easy to pile on and have a selective memory about the growing pains of Tesla. These problems are par for the course with new car companies.

I'm just going to point this out. Many of the Roadster compromises are associated with the style of car (being a roadster). Every car company has it's rough patches, but a patch is supposed to be a patch not the whole field.

Every compromise with the Karma is based on the aesthetic design, not the type of car (there are some based on bad engineering choices)

Fisker designed a EVer because to them electric cars are a compromise on range
result: severely compromised interior space. The size of a sub compact. No other competitor has that small of an interior (Porsche Panamera) So you can drive 400 miles, but you have a car with an interior the size of a yaris that has the external size of a Lexus 600hl. Why would anyone want to take a trip in a car that small? with a trunk that is smaller than subcompact cars. So unless everyone mailed their clothes to their destination, someone is going to be wearing dirty undies.

 

[smoothoperator]

I was comparing the design of the fisker Karma to the Velokraft no-com recumbent bicycle (not motorbike).
View attachment 6791
A bike that Kamil at Velokraft produced that though called a nocom (no compromise) instead was the embodiement of compromise. The Fisker Karma is the same with it front exhaust, center tunnel and disappointing performance.

The NoCom had similar issues, it was not as stiff as it should be causing power loss, it had manufacturing issues so each bike ended up being unique and with unique problems. None of these stopped some racers from setting records with it, though none stand today. The Fisker is similarly disappointing.

On the Fisker forums a lot of people love the car

 

[Zythryn]

No doubt, I am sure many people do like it.
If a persons values efficiency, the Karma is awful.
The way the charger looks to be added as an afterthought just sens shivers up my spine. If there was no competition and the Karma was the only range extended EV and there were no EVs I might be interested in one.

The Karma looks absolutely awesome. In this case though, beauty appears to be only skin deep. I do look forward to seeing the Atlantic.

On the topic of "no compromises" that is a marketing gimmick that many auto makers use (yes, Tesla included). It sounds good, but it is meaningless.
The phrase is subjective. What one person considers a 'compromise' another doesn't. More importantly, it is not possible to make a car with no compromises.

Cargo capacity vs sporty size
Weight vs range
Price vs extras

Every choice in a car results in a compromise, with the possible exception of paint color

 

[rolosrevenge]

It would seem that Fisker made no compromises on their external styling. Tesla will similarly make no compromises in being all electric, and their performance within their class. There is some meaning in that.