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Karma -vs- Model S
- Thread starter doug
- Start date
A lot of interesting comments there. I would defend my purchase if I bought a Karma as well most likely but not sure when they feel the continue need to show they are better or they have a more 'real' car than the Model S. They are two very different cars. I would think the #1 reason to buy the Karma would be looks or maybe fuel savings all in one package. If you don't care about fuel savings then that largely takes away one of the main advantages of the Karma over an M5 or Audi A7.
Looks are one driver, flexibility is another (gas/electric). I now have two Karmas and love them both. I was also looking this weekend at an Aston Martin Rapide just for fun (and comparison) and its amazing how much better my Karmas are compared to that offering. Vs. the Rapide, the Karma looks better, has more presence, more room in the rear seats and has better interior styling IMO. The Rapide is about a second faster to 60 (0-60 in 5.0s vs. 6.1s) but it is also about double the MSRP (or triple the current market price). For the extra $120-150K, you do get a warranty which you don't have really with Fisker anymore and that's about it.
I will say that with the new MSP+ and the battery swap/supercharger expansion, Tesla's offering is becoming much more compelling than it was even just a few months ago.
Thanks. Good to get input from an actual owner. I've only ever sat in a Karma, never driven one. You have a Model S as well, right? Can't remember if you did. I love the styling of the Aston Martins but at twice the price that is a little much.
That would be Dennis.
And I am a former Fisker-owner, now waiting for a Model S Signature. Reading the article saddens me because I realize again how good the car could have been if they had just executed better: less focus on styling, more on reliability. If I could have had a smooth suspension system instead of reclaimed wood and a waterproof hood instead of glass particles in the paint, I would probably still be driving it. Such a shame. I think Henrik Fisker also has a lot of regrets.
jeff_adams
Member
I suspect that Fisker got what he deserved. I think he went to work for Tesla, saw what they were doing and thought he could be "first to market" by taking shortcuts.
I know Fisker won the lawsuit, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he dragged out his Tesla designs while he secretly built his business plan. There is nothing wrong with competition, but Tesla was on a knife's edge financially and Karma pulled away investors that Tesla could have used at the time.
I'm sure those people are regretting betting on the wrong horse.
I know Fisker won the lawsuit, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he dragged out his Tesla designs while he secretly built his business plan. There is nothing wrong with competition, but Tesla was on a knife's edge financially and Karma pulled away investors that Tesla could have used at the time.
I'm sure those people are regretting betting on the wrong horse.
Most people cannot admit they were wrong. The comments are about as uninformed as they get. The Model S is nothing like a golf cart. Putting the looks aside(different folks have a different taste), the Karma is inferior in every single way. The market(including myself here) voted with their wallets, and we all know who won.
I agree, the Karma is not that good looking of a car. I'm also sure that if the Karmas were flying off the carlots, the other problems would have been easy obstacles.
To each their own on looks (but I will say you can't just look at the pictures - seeing the Karma in person is very different than pictures, more so than any other car I've seen/owned).
EDIT: Here's a shot from IG
I've spent a ton of time with other Karma owners over the last two or so years and I think for the most part we all share a similar view of what's happened at Fisker (I also know many current/ex-FA employees and FA investors so have their perspectives as well). At the end of the day, the Karma product turned out to be very solid - there were many many teething problems early on which went unaddressed by Henrik and his team - many if not most of these issues were hit head on when LaSorda took the helm for that brief period. He instilled a very different results-oriented culture within FA and its a shame he left so soon. TonyP is more Henrik-like than LaSorda and that's also a great shame. Had LaSorda been involved earlier and stayed with FA longer, the company would still be viable and thriving today. In the few months he was there, there was a substantial degree of transparency and communication with owners (we had three of the four owner townhalls under his few month tenure as CEO as one example).
As it relates to the Karma itself, had the company not taken a beating due to politics and some very unfortunate bad press early on (which related to bad QA in early builds), I think people would be buying Karmas today even at the $100K price. They wouldn't be selling 15K/year, but I think they could sustain easily 2-3K per year globally. Compare the Karma to the Rapide - again, performance is comparable, handling is as well. AM has pedigree that FA doesn't, but it also lacks the green cred FA has. Styling wise, I personally think the Karma wins handily, but YMMV.
I'm happy Tesla is doing well - I'm a big fan of Elon and his role in really driving results and responding to customers. That's really where the value lies at TM.
EDIT: Found some pictures of AM and Fisker (granted not the Rapide, but similar styling):
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I was mainly talking about engineering of both cars. The Karma is an engineering abortion, while the Model S is exactly the opposite. At the end of the day, spending six figures on such a car is not going to happen for anyone that does a bit of research on their purchase. 2-3k sales a year wasn't going to keep the company afloat, and it didn't. Everything else is just excuses.
Nope - don't have an MS - had a deposit for awhile and have been on a few test drives, but decided not to pull trigger. Haven't driven MSP+ yet, but from what I've heard from Dennis and others, its an impressive car and handles as well as the Karma. Don't think the NYC store has an MSP+ yet to drive.
What I don't understand is the argument that the Karma is a vastly superior, ground breaking and innovative car while the Model S is a 100 year old technology. Ignoring the fact that lithium ion cells weren't commercially available until 1991 I think and that the Roadster was the first 'mass' produced highway capable EV actually sold to people (not leased) then I'm not sure what their argument is. The Karma while a striking and some would say beautiful design (also polarizing) basically outsourced engineering and got their powertrain from Q-drive. The Volt beat Fisker to market and is a similar product so they weren't even first to market although the Volt is not luxury car.
The statement one guy made that all Tesla owners are cheering the Fisker demise and all Fisker owners love Tesla is also not accurate. I've seen numerous posts on Fiskerbuzz trashing Tesla and their owners while most people here point out the glaring engineering problems and design issues with the Karma. No one here is happy Fisker failed or for what their owners are going through. We realize (especially early Roadster owners and I don't include myself) that Tesla could have been in the same situation.
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Thanks. I hope they figure things out at Fisker or at least a way to support and continue to work on your car as needed.
The statement one guy made that all Tesla owners are cheering the Fisker demise and all Fisker owners love Tesla is also not accurate. I've seen numerous posts on Fiskerbuzz trashing Tesla and their owners while most people here point out the glaring engineering problems and design issues with the Karma. No one here is happy Fisker failed or for what their owners are going through. We realize (especially early Roadster owners and I don't include myself) that Tesla could have been in the same situation.
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Thanks. I hope they figure things out at Fisker or at least a way to support and continue to work on your car as needed.
Fisker vs. Tesla: A Lesson in Not Taking Shortcuts - Motor Trend
Yeah. Beating my head against a wall. Fell free to jump in.
Jim Ackley feels the Model S is a poorly built car and that it was all bad luck with Fisker. Not bad design choices or business decision. Also, Tesla didn't invent the EV. Who knew?
Yeah. Beating my head against a wall. Fell free to jump in.
Jim Ackley feels the Model S is a poorly built car and that it was all bad luck with Fisker. Not bad design choices or business decision. Also, Tesla didn't invent the EV. Who knew?
Tough crowd over at Motortrend. I was told I should stop calling Fisker owners 'idiots' (never said that) and that they were stupid for buying the car (never said that and don't believe that). I guess anyone says something negative about the car and they jump on them. I'd be pretty pissed if Tesla went out of business and I couldn't get service done too so I understand but fail to see why they took any critism of the car and design as personal attacks.
Yes, I got Fisker's first name wrong in a post. That means I can't read will and don't understand engineering at all. That Jim guy in the comments is a special person. Says he worked at Tesla for a bit then Fisker. Has both cars too. Good for him.
Yes, I got Fisker's first name wrong in a post. That means I can't read will and don't understand engineering at all. That Jim guy in the comments is a special person. Says he worked at Tesla for a bit then Fisker. Has both cars too. Good for him.
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