Karma -vs- Model S

[doug]

Yeah, I don't feel comfortable about it either. Even though the Karma is kind of a "rival", Tesla won't gain very much fighting against the Karma. Both should target the non-plug-in rivals for any hope of having a long term market. In the same vein, it irks me when PHEV fans and manufacturers push against BEVs.

I had never really seen them as rivals, but rather two approaches to a similar high-end market, performance EV and luxury PHEV. People could choose what worked best for them, and I really liked the idea of options in the market place.

But Fisker really dropped the ball. You could say that they had a lot of bad luck, but really you make your own luck. With the help of the Chinese, they may yet turn it around, but I'm not really sure what the company looks like after that.

 

[vfx]

Honest truth is if Tesla never existed in any form and an upstart Fisker came out with the car they are selling now it would be new, noteworthy awesome and groundbreaking. Many of us would be on that forum right now.

Even if there was a Volt.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Honest truth is if Tesla never existed in any form and an upstart Fisker came out with the car they are selling now it would be new, noteworthy awesome and groundbreaking. Many of us would be on that forum right now.

Even if there was a Volt.

But the honest truth is that if Tesla never existed there would be no Fisker, nor a Volt.

Because Bob Lutz said Tesla's Roadster inspired them to go to make an EV again and Fisker got the idea while working at Tesla.

 

[brianman]

Honest truth is if Tesla never existed in any form and an upstart Fisker came out with the car they are selling now it would be new, noteworthy awesome and groundbreaking. Many of us would be on that forum right now.

Even if there was a Volt.

I wouldn't. If there wasn't Tesla, I'd be hoping/praying Nissan would make an EV that I can live with. The U.S. carmakers doesn't seem able or willing to make an EV*, sans Tesla.

* For me, an "EV" doesn't carry "fuel".

 

[Arnold Panz]

I like the video, and think these guys are just being honest. While I'm generally "rooting" for all EVs and cars in this space, I think it does as much (or more) harm than good to have an EV that has major flaws. Whether it's the lack of range in the Leaf or myriad little problems with the Karma (at over $100k), failures just prove the naysayers wrong and will make it that much harder to make EVs more mainstream.

It was also good watching this because I sometimes forget how incredible my car is, and what an amazing job Tesla's done in putting together a "real" car that car people like as much or more than the best of the ICEs (like an M5), having nothing to do with it being an EV. And not just the speed and instant torque, but the touchscreen, styling etc. As these guys note, it's not a perfect car, but it's by far the best example of what's possible with EVs.

 

[vfx]

My hypothetical takes place in 2006. A new car company called Fisker announcers they are coming out with a new half EV half gas car and it looks amazing as it does.

For 2 to 3 years there is no Volt, no Leaf so we have no idea if anyone will ever catch up.

 

[brianman]

My hypothetical takes place in 2006. A new car company called Fisker announces they are coming out with a new half EV half gas car and it looks amazing as it does.

For 2 to 3 years there is no Volt, no Leaf so we have no idea if anyone will ever catch up.

Still wouldn't get even momentary interest from me. Two systems to maintain is just one of the walk-away issues for me.

As for the looks of the Karma, it's definitely "striking" but some of that adjective is a bad thing. For me at least.

 

[brianman]

It might have been posted already (I've only read about half this thread), but I ran across this on youtube.

Reported as April 9, 2009:

Karma as "plug-in hybrid." Before hybrid became a dirty word.

"Because our battery is much smaller you can charge it much faster."
"My taxes are so much less because I'm paid so little."
Yay?

 

[Doug_G]

"Because our battery is much smaller you can charge it much faster."

"Because our gas tank is much smaller, you can empty it much faster."

 

[jerry33]

I was surprised at the end with the "Tesla has done many things that everyone thought were impossible but they are not going to be able to do the next one and will have to sell out to/be rescued by another, probably Chinese, company" statement. That pretty much shot down everything good they said the rest of the time.

 

[smorgasbord]

I'd more question the "sports" part. Always irks me.

Have you driven one? Dennis has:

I prefer the handling of the Karma. Two specific traits come to mind:

1) The Model S always feels like it is understeering, while the Karma steering feels neutral at turn-in and does not understeer until you approach the cornering limits of the car. A good place to experience the difference in feel between the two cars is on a freeway cloverleaf.

2) Changing lanes at high speeds in the Model S does not feel secure. There was a long thread on this right after 4.2 came out. I duplicated this test in the Karma at 85-90 mph and it was rock solid.

I would just add that even on paper, the Karma does better on the skidpad than Model S. Unlike others here, I wasn't blown away with my test drive of Model S Performance.

 

[spatterso911]

Have you driven one? Dennis has:



I would just add that even on paper, the Karma does better on the skidpad than Model S. Unlike others here, I wasn't blown away with my test drive of Model S Performance.

I would have to agree with Dennis on the high speed lane change. You need both hands firmly on the wheel because it feels a little squirrelly in the rear as you apply power rapidly and change lanes. Almost as if the rpm's on each rear wheel are slightly different for a moment...

 

[Doug_G]

I should point out that sudden steering movements combined with sudden acceleration is inherently unsafe in any vehicle. Try that with a short wheelbase SUV and you'll roll it.

 

[AnOutsider]

*edit* for some reason it deleted my original reply

Have you driven one? Dennis has:



I would just add that even on paper, the Karma does better on the skidpad than Model S. Unlike others here, I wasn't blown away with my test drive of Model S Performance.

Yes I have (and documented it here). The Karma definitely has superior handling, however I found the off the line acceleration to be lacking (though some karma owners find it acceptable) and acceleration at passing speeds to be pretty poor. Is handling what comprises a sports car these days?

I should point out that sudden steering movements combined with sudden acceleration is inherently unsafe in any vehicle. Try that with a short wheelbase SUV and you'll roll it.

Never had a problem in my Q5 (granted, it's not claiming to be a sports car either). In fact, I've never felt as unstable in any other car as I felt in the Model S in the early days. Granted, it's gotten loads better, but at high speeds, the car still doesn't feel as grounded as it should (especially considering the battery pack).

 

[spatterso911]

I should point out that sudden steering movements combined with sudden acceleration is inherently unsafe in any vehicle. Try that with a short wheelbase SUV and you'll roll it.

Well, I'm not talking about sudden steering movements. I'm referring to a lane change while applying full acceleration, moderate steering input only, moving into the next lane. You will feel the rear end wiggle or slide slightly and it's jarring to the stability of the car. I'm on 21" wheels with michelins on dry pavement and I've noticed it several times. I know I don't have alignment issues, because on good pavement with steady speed, the car tracks straight.

 

[FlasherZ]

I would have to agree with Dennis on the high speed lane change. You need both hands firmly on the wheel because it feels a little squirrelly in the rear as you apply power rapidly and change lanes. Almost as if the rpm's on each rear wheel are slightly different for a moment...

I can't say that I have that problem, the model S has always felt in control for me. I can also say that I'm not experiencing this "4.2 sway problem" that a number of posters are complaining about -- and I do drive very aggressively.

 

[ChadS]

I get the swaying under full-speed acceleration when it's wet - but I kind of expect it then. I have never felt it on dry pavement. Odd that the cars are so different.

(I don't have a Perf; that may be part of the difference).

 

[Kaivball]

Are you slamming down the accelerator when changing lanes as if you are still in your Prius?

 

[spatterso911]

Are you slamming down the accelerator when changing lanes as if you are still in your Prius?

Is this addressed to me? Never owned a Prius.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

Well, I'm not talking about sudden steering movements. I'm referring to a lane change while applying full acceleration, moderate steering input only, moving into the next lane. You will feel the rear end wiggle or slide slightly and it's jarring to the stability of the car. I'm on 21" wheels with michelins on dry pavement and I've noticed it several times. I know I don't have alignment issues, because on good pavement with steady speed, the car tracks straight.

I wonder if what you are feeling is the ESP controlling the car. The Model S has so much torque on the rear wheels that if you do a lane change while applying full acceleration the ESP system may detect the possibility of a slide and already react to that with minor corrections. With the Karma there is no risk of a slide as it simply lacks the power to accelerate quickly when doing a lane change on the highway.

If it's not the ESP causing the perceived 'issue', then maybe it's the tires? It could be that the Michelins aren't the best choice.