Karma -vs- Model S

[AnOutsider]

The Model S Sport is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
The Karma is a sheep in wolf's clothing.

I like that

Sloping roof aside, the Fisker seats look a lot more comfy than Model S.

They do. If you're talking rear, like I think you are, they remain sort of "bench"-y, but still look comfy and attractive.

*sighs* if only he'd stayed on team Tesla

 

[Larry Chanin]

EPA Certifies 2012 Fisker Karma At 52 MPGe Combined

EPA Certifies 2012 Fisker Karma At 52 MPGe Combined

For now, the Karma is likely the reigning champion of economy in the luxury market; that is, until the Tesla Model S comes out. When the Model S finally comes to market (we don’t know exactly when), it should carry a 100 MPGe rating, a 300-mile range, and a cost of $69,900, roughly $27,000 less than a base Karma.

Larry

 

[TEG]

I figured this thread needs a TEG style direct photo comparison...

Thanks for thinking of me in that regard...

I prefer to compare with the same orientation, so here are some different Model S pix next to Karma:

Now compared to Alpha so you can see the similarity with the base wheels:

 

[TEG]

By the way, the biggest difference, to me, seems to be in the nose / hood. Looking just at the back 3/4 side view they have a lot of similarity:

 

[Mycroft]

WSJ: Fisker Karma: Speedy Luxury Hybrid Goes On Sale

The company says the Karma’s battery can be recharged in less than six hours using the type of 240-volt household current that powers many major home appliances like clothes dryers.

I hope that's not an accurate quote. Six hours of 240v charging to go 32 miles would be an embarrassment they couldn't recover from, looks or no. IMHO

 

[TEG]

Karma was reported to have a 22.6 kWh pack, not a whole lot less than LEAF.
LEAF has a wimpy 3.3kW charger which would take over 6 hours to charge 22.6kWh
Karma charger is probably a bit more powerful, but by how much?
Hopefully at least 6.6kW which should give sub 4 hour full recharge times.
"Under six hours" would be more like a 4kW charger which would be a bit of a disappointment if they want people to stay in EV mode as much as possible to avoid that 20MPG...

 

[doug]

WSJ: Fisker Karma: Speedy Luxury Hybrid Goes On Sale
I hope that's not an accurate quote. Six hours of 240v charging to go 32 miles would be an embarrassment they couldn't recover from, looks or no. IMHO

240V*16A*6h = 23kWh which I think is about the size of the Karma battery pack. So yeah, not particularly efficient as an EV. Will be interested in the Wh/mile metric.

 

[Cobos]

I'd agree on the first two. Exterior, hands down Fisker, interior, Fisker's seems warmer and more luxurious IMO. As far as "radical" though... I like Franz, chatted with him a couple times, but I have to be honest... He's never done a design that has blown me away. They're never "BAD", just nothing to write home about. Fisker's designs can go a bit far, but they usually connect somewhere emotionally -- which to me anyway, is important.

Here's where we seriously disagree. The Fisker evokes an emotion in me but none of them good. Calling it a poser seems like a good way to describe it. That huge hood just looks wierd and strange. A bit like the Panamera that looks good from the front but has a backend that makes the 1st gen Cayenne look good which takes some doing. The Model S on the other hand for me looks a lot like a refined Aston Martin or Jaguar look. A sleek and elegant design. Not as striking as the Karma, but a lot classier. After all a 10 car pileup on the highway is also striking, that's why everyone passing is looking, but noone would call it pretty

100% agreed. Though the Model S has shaped up to be quite the looker... Just not as "radical" or "stirring".

And as mentioned above that's exactly what is so good about it. At least for me that only has 1 car and have to look at it every day. I suppose if I only drove the Karma on special days when the mood struck me things would be different, but I can't choose a new car every day... So the new Karma looks better than earlier prototypes but still it's too wierd for me stomach.

Cobos

 

[AnOutsider]

By the way, the biggest difference, to me, seems to be in the nose / hood. Looking just at the back 3/4 side view they have a lot of similarity:

Agreed. on the front and rear though, there's something about the light assemblies that I like, though seeing the video of the Model S being pulled into the store with the lights on creates a prettier fascia IMO

Six hours of 240v charging to go 32 miles would be an embarrassment they couldn't recover from, looks or no. IMHO

Somehow, I think people wills till find a way to justify it. No one likes to admit they backed the wrong pony.

Here's where we seriously disagree. The Fisker evokes an emotion in me but none of them good.

Fair enough

 

[TEG]

When I look at those, Karma looks like a Model S where someone really heavy sat on the front hood and squished down the windshield...

 

[TEG]

That long Karma nose with sunken windshield kinda/sorta makes me think of Dodge Viper.

 

[SByer]

Here's where we seriously disagree. The Fisker evokes an emotion in me but none of them good. Calling it a poser seems like a good way to describe it.

It's like the hood is trying to evoke the Jaguar E-type without the style or elegance. I mean, the rear view isn't as sleek or stylish as the Model S IMO, but I get to the front end view and I just cringe. There's got to be an uncanny valley in there somewhere, and Fisker found the wrong side of it. Anything forward of a side view, and eeew. It's a total cluster#$#$ of design languages - curves and diamond and edges, oh my! And yes, I agree, that's how the Panamera from the rear makes me feel too. Let's not talk about the Cayenne, which looks bad from any angle (what the hell happened to Porsche? How many anti-halo cars do you think you can survive?!?)

I disagree with TEG on the Viper comment - the Viper more honestly grabs the stoopid-bad-boy attitude, where the Karma has a slap-my-face I-wanna-be-a-green-boy smirk. The Viper can also back up it's looks.

And yeah, it's totally, completely emotional and irrational.

 

[Doug_G]

Meh, I just can't get excited about a plug-in hybrid, and it's not a very good one. It certainly has distinctive looks, but somehow he's made it cool and awful all at the same time. Doesn't hold a candle to the Model S.

 

[Eberhard]

I was yesterday at the eCarTec in Munic, there is an Karma on Display. The Karma is in a total different category than Model S. The Karma is more competing against Aston Martin and Maserati, while Model S focus more like on BMW 5-series or Mercedes E-Class as well as Audi A6/A7. The Karma is huge, heavy and says: i don't care but I'm greenish.

 

[smoothoperator]

Personally I like the looks of the Karma over the Model S, its obvious that the engineering behind the Karma is inferior to the Model S. I wish the Karma would have turned out better for Fisker. It may have been more prudent for Fisker to offer a full EV option for the Karma. Problem for me with the Model S is the way they integrated the screen, I hate the look of it and cannot imagine myself sitting in the Model S day in and day out having to look at that ugly "aftermarket" looking screen. It literally looks like something out of "Pimp My Ride."

 

[Mycroft]

Given the numbers they're going to put out, I think Fisker just might succeed with the Karma. There are a LOT of guys out there that would relish a massive car like that. I find the visual presence of the thing very attractive myself. But one thing the Karma and the Roadster have in common is the impracticality factor. Having an ICE built in, with the large generator, brings it to another level.

 

[doug]

A couple to add to the Karma/Model S photo comparison

Motor(s) and Inverter(s):

Karma motors Suspension Walkaround: 2012 Fisker Karma

Karma inverters - one per motor - located between the back seats and the trunk (Underneath and inside the Karma)

Model S motor and inverter (Tesla Model S Beta 1: A glimpse of the future from the passenger seat | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews)

 

[ElSupreme]

Model S motor and inverter (Tesla Model S Beta 1: A glimpse of the future from the passenger seat | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews)

Ok, I should know this but where is the inverter on the Model S? Is it in the battery pack?

 

[doug]

Ok, I should know this but where is the inverter on the Model S? Is it in the battery pack?

In this photo the inverter is in the cylindrical housing on the left with the orange cut-off cables sticking out of it. The motor is the cylinder on the right. Makes you really appreciate how nicely Tesla has packaged their drivetrain. The inverter and motor are right next to each other so there's no long (and wasteful) cable lines.

Contrast with the Karma:

Long coolant and power cable lines. Also the inverters are taking half of the trunk. Not quite sure how the power and torque compares, though.

 

[ElSupreme]

In this photo the inverter is in the cylindrical housing on the left with the orange cut-off cables sticking out of it. The motor is the cylinder on the right. Makes you really appreciate how nicely Tesla has packaged their drivetrain. The inverter and motor are right next to each other so there's no long (and wasteful) cable lines.

Thank you. That makes sense. I looked at the Karma inverter pics, and then the Tesla pics and did "huh" moment and didn't really think. I looked again and it is obvious that only half of the cylinder in the Model S is a motor, as it connects to the gear reduction/differential, half-way through.

Not to mention that the Karma inverters will probably get pretty warm (even with water cooling, maybe 120-130F on a hot day) and heat up the 'trunk'.