Karma -vs- Model S

[donauker]

Pretty sure the Karma has the equivalent. I think they call it Hill mode.

Hill Mode on the Karma is actually the selection of regenerative braking on throttle lift. This is somewhat like the Roadster default but not quite as aggressive.

Sport Mode is the selection for bringing on the ICE to maintain the battery level for future use.

 

[doug]

Thanks. So Sport mode brings up the charge level as well as increasing immediate performance.

 

[Larry Chanin]

First Ride: 2012 Tesla Model S
Sampling the Make or Break Car for the EV's Future

At this moment, I'm one of Earth's few inhabitants to have ridden in both Fisker's Karma and Tesla's Model S (at least in this pre-production guise), and maybe the most startling difference between them is space efficiency. The Karma's vastly smaller, 20 kW-hr battery runs down the car's spine, dividing the interior so utterly that there's not only room for just two in back, but I'd advise them to be 12 years old. Its trunk? Don't play golf. However, the Model S's battery -- despite being more than four times bigger -- is sort of like a 3- or 4-inch-thick sheet of plywood bolted under the car (and said to be removable in minutes). As the rear-mounted motor and reduction gears are quite small, the result is astonishing.

Larry

 

[smorgasbord]

Does anyone know if during the recent Beta event, if any of the Model S Betas had issues? I know they had some door handle problems, but I think every car completed every lap they started. That's in comparison to Fisker's pre-first ship test drives, for which problems were widely reported.

Now, I know Tesla already has a production car under its belt, so maybe it's not a fair comparison - but at any rate, it does seem like the drivetrain for the Model S is very rock solid.

 

[Mycroft]

1. There was a problem with one of the cars on the second day.

2. These three cars were practically hand built and not indicative of the quality of the cars coming off the assembly line. The drive train is probably the most solid part of these beta 1 cars. The rest of the car, not so much. They're in much better shape than the alphas were though. There was no qualm about driving them in the rain or keeping the speed down.

 

[TEG]

I think it would be safe to say that something was bound to go wrong doing such an event.
There probably isn't much point in saying much more than that.
Overall I think the cars behaved admirably and they pulled off what they intended to do, right?

 

[AnOutsider]

1. There was a problem with one of the cars on the second day.

What happened? I agree though smorgasbord, when Fisker first did test rides there were a lot of complaints and issues. Tail lights out, cars not starting, something about a trunk sensor, and of course, the sound.

 

[AnOutsider]

Looks like the karma was recently downgraded from 5.9s 0-60 to 6.3s

 

[ljbad4life]

Looks like the karma was recently downgraded from 5.9s 0-60 to 6.3s

You are so right! they silently slipped that into their website. Where's the buzz? My 2 cents is that the one of the parts of the powertrain couldn't keep up with the repeated stress. I doubt it's the dual electric motors so that leaves the generator or the battery. My bet is on the battery not being able to be repeatedly discharged from flooring it in sport mode. It also could be that this was a way to quiet the ICE down. Not as much power draw from the generator so the ICE won't rev high/work as hard

 

[Mycroft]

Doesn't it weigh something like 5,500 lbs?

 

[ljbad4life]

Doesn't it weigh something like 5,500 lbs?

I think it's somewhere around 5,300lbs, yup it's a heavy car. In comparison the Lexus 600hl is ~5,000lbs and gets 0-60 in 5.5.

 

[AnOutsider]

Honestly, from a non-tesla-fanboy perspective, the only thing I find attractive about the proposition of the Karma is the fact that it SHOULD be available sooner than the S, and that the looks are much more striking than the S (even if overdone IMO in certain areas).

Those things aside... Same range (though I suppose being able to easily refuel on the road is a plus), less efficient, less cargo room, worse performance and from what is being shared by current reservation holders, a company and dealer network that doesn't seem anywhere up to par with Tesla on the organizational and communication fronts.

I suspect the looks are the big draw here.

 

[doug]

^^ I agree with all that. Karma has more bold looks, perhaps a more luxury interior (so far). But I think the Model S surpasses it on every other consideration.

 

[Mycroft]

I suspect the looks are the big draw here.

It's certainly unique and it's going to be drawing eyeballs wherever it goes. But then so does the De Lorean which is also a fairly badly performing car. Big hat, no cattle.

from what is being shared by current reservation holders, a company and dealer network that doesn't seem anywhere up to par with Tesla on the organizational and communication fronts

Yeah, anybody who thinks Tesla is bad at communication (see me raise my hand) should check out Fisker's track record. Very sad!

 

[TEG]

I like the looks of Model S more than Karma. But both vehicles are bigger than I like.

 

[AnOutsider]

I like the looks of Model S more than Karma. But both vehicles are bigger than I like.

I think the S is alright. We actually took an A7 out again today (wife actually ended up getting an A6 instead) and it felt like a good size. Lots of trunk storage but didn't feel too much like a boat. It was also quite nimble, and given what the configuration (batteries in the floor) will offer, I expect that to be even moreso true in the S.

Though, yes, the more I hear about Bluestar being the size of a 3-series and less like a dinky little thing (was always in the back of my head when I thought of Bluestar), the more I think something smaller and nimbler may make a better daily driver.

We shall see!

 

[vfx]

I've always been impressed how Tesla has stuck to their projected numbers (except delivery).

 

[AnOutsider]

^^ I agree with all that. Karma has more bold looks, perhaps a more luxury interior (so far). But I think the Model S surpasses it on every other consideration.

Hmm, aside from the gauges (something about them in the Karma are nice to me), I actually like the S interior more (as much as I've griped over it)

It's certainly unique and it's going to be drawing eyeballs wherever it goes. But then so does the De Lorean which is also a fairly badly performing car. Big hat, no cattle.

Right, but I guess what we can take away from that and ponder is: What if Henrik had stayed on with Tesla? What if they had got over butting heads and Henrik designed a car within the team's specs? Then you'd have a bigger visual wow-factor to go along with the fact that it's a superior machine all around (IMO).

 

[Mycroft]

I think that's how the Karma ended up the way it is, (with a ginormous battery pack down the middle and 0-60 times of 6.3), because Henrik couldn't compromise his "vision" for things like practicalities. OK, so the Model S doesn't look like it could jump you and rip your throat out like the Karma does, I still love it!

21" wheels, 0-60 4.5, 66 cubic ft of storage, seats 5 adults, 300 miles of real-world silent distance? Kick ass!!!

Not to mention, the amazing magic invisible engine driving the whole thing. KICK A-S-S!!!

 

[AnOutsider]

I think that's how the Karma ended up the way it is, (with a ginormous battery pack down the middle and 0-60 times of 6.3), because Henrik couldn't compromise his "vision" for things like practicalities. OK, so the Model S doesn't look like it could jump you and rip your throat out like the Karma does, I still love it!

21" wheels, 0-60 4.5, 66 cubic ft of storage, seats 5 adults, 300 miles of real-world silent distance? Kick ass!!!

Not to mention, the amazing magic invisible engine driving the whole thing. KICK A-S-S!!!

So... Let me get this straight.... What you're saying is that you think the Model S kicks ass?

Haha, I do too, don't get me wrong. Just musing on what "could" have been.