The contrast really makes me appreciate how thoughtfully designed the Model S powertrain is. No wonder that other OEMs are buying it!
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Karma -vs- Model S
- Thread starter doug
- Start date
tommolog
Member
Jaff
Active Member
Perhaps better described as "perversion" (of the definition of an EV) :wink::biggrin:
Both, actually. Like the Model S, I have not driven a Karma, but I have rode in one. So mixing that experience with my armchair research: they lowered the performance, so it's no longer a sports car, pretty crappy MPG for a green car, exhaust up front (though it wasn't horrible-sounding in the one I got to ride in, post-muffler update, but it was more than a "luxury" car should have). The packaging sucks too, it's almost as if they bought the batteries and related equipment off the shelf then forced it into the pre-designed shell (murdering interior space) -- something that I'd imagine would be better-handled if one group is doing all the work.
I guess the better question would be what is there to actually praise about the drivetrain?
*edit* and them taking drivetrain in-house in early 2011, months before deliveries were supposed to begin would also help to explain the delays in production.
Test drive one and then come back here and post your opinion on it "sucking"...your opinion cannot be taken seriously if you say something sucks without driving it. Looks like you have an axe to grind.
Actually, it sounds more like I struck a nerve with you (sorry?).... Fisker of Wilmington did actually call me back for a test DRIVE, which I declined because I knew I wouldn't be buying one, but alright, I'll go for the DRIVE. Granted, you completely dismissed my opinion because I hadn't DRIVEN it, though everything I mentioned were technical things (range, interior volume, packaging) that you don't have to drive to know?
Not really, this is an internet message board hard to take it seriously but apparently you do:biggrin:
I have just noticed that you like to troll around on this and the other board trying to rile people up, I find it kinda funny actually.....
Comment on how badly it sucks after you drive it your opinion will be based on fact instead of your perceptions...
I have just noticed that you like to troll around on this and the other board trying to rile people up, I find it kinda funny actually.....
Comment on how badly it sucks after you drive it your opinion will be based on fact instead of your perceptions...
I'm not taking it seriously enough to get personal and offensive over the matter, but you are right there are some things that specs alone can't relay, and for that reason we've scheduled to DRIVE the karma tomorrow @ 2. Then I'll be able to add driving experience to my overall opinion and see if that changes things.
As for "trolling", I like to remain objective on things, if I disagree with an opinion, I'm going to state it, if I'm wrong, I accept that too. I'm happy that it at least amuses you though.
The one I am driving on a daily basis certainly doesn't "suck". The ride is amazingly smooth and quite. My daily use gas mileage is infinite.
Go read what owner are saying about the car. Yes, there are software issues at this time, but go see what cars some owners are leaving parked when choosing to drive their Karma instead and how many are preferring to drive the Karma. These owners are choosing to put up with software issues for the amazing qualities of the Karma.
The response to both the exterior and the interior of the car is also overwhelmingly positive. As much as I like the Model S and look forward to receiving mine, I find the interior design to be a big negative and couldn't begin to call it luxury.
Go read what owner are saying about the car. Yes, there are software issues at this time, but go see what cars some owners are leaving parked when choosing to drive their Karma instead and how many are preferring to drive the Karma. These owners are choosing to put up with software issues for the amazing qualities of the Karma.
The response to both the exterior and the interior of the car is also overwhelmingly positive. As much as I like the Model S and look forward to receiving mine, I find the interior design to be a big negative and couldn't begin to call it luxury.
Mycroft
Life happens
Agreed. Tesla has definitely stayed away from the "luxury" moniker and is instead preferring to use "premium". Whatever that means.
Honestly, I'm hoping Tesla steps it up and at least matches Audi on interior quality (I know that even they aren't HIGH END), but I'm happy with the gadgets and performance even if not. @donauker, I didn't mean that the interior of the car sucked at all, what I mean is that they developed the drive train in-house, but the car still suffers a loss of interior space like it was a conversion (like it was shoe-horned in). So yes, I haven't experienced how the car DRIVES (which is to be remedied shortly), but I was more talking about how haggard their solution seemed.
I openly admit that for the most part the Karma is a better looking car than the S (and have even stated I wished Henrik had stayed with Tesla), and even considered ordering one (back when I thought they were to be delivered last spring), but the S just seemed an overall more-attractive package to me.
Regarding the Karma's looks vs the Model S:
I happen to think the S is gorgeous, but I understand some people like the Karma more - it certainly has style.
I read somewhere that the Karma has a Cd of 0.31 and the Model S is what? 0.22? 0.23? 0.25?
You pay for all those extra angles, bulges, projections, and swoops.
Slap a 0.31 Cd on the Model S and you would get much less than 300 miles out of the 85 kWh battery.
Aerodynamics constrains the grills and fins and flash and extraneous curves you can put on a car - it doesn't matter who the designer is.
I happen to think the S is gorgeous, but I understand some people like the Karma more - it certainly has style.
I read somewhere that the Karma has a Cd of 0.31 and the Model S is what? 0.22? 0.23? 0.25?
You pay for all those extra angles, bulges, projections, and swoops.
Slap a 0.31 Cd on the Model S and you would get much less than 300 miles out of the 85 kWh battery.
Aerodynamics constrains the grills and fins and flash and extraneous curves you can put on a car - it doesn't matter who the designer is.
Yes, this seems to be a bit of downgrade since it was first shown. Initial claims would have lead one to believe that it would be better in all ways then anything else in it's price range. At this point I don't feel it even compares well to the 6 year old 50K Lexus I just got rid of. Except of course for the giant screen stuck rather awkwardly to the dash.
Based on the overwhelmingly negative response from all the Tesla fans on their Facebook page when the interior was first revealed, it would seem obvious that improvements are needed in this area.
And this would be as compared to which other luxury PHEV with 30-50 miles of EV range? I really don't get the whole issue about interior volume. It is not the vehicle that I will be loading up with gear and going camping in, but how much room does a person need to get to and from the office? We certainly have no problem taking friends out to dinner with us. Packing for a multi-day trip was indeed quite a challenge for two of us in the Roadster but with the Karma it will feel like we have all of the room in the world.
People keep comparing apples to oranges and claiming one is so much better than the other. Most people buying the Karma would not even consider a Model S. They are moving from a vehicle that probably got city mileage in the teens and they start playing the EV mileage game. The likely hood of these people considering a full BEV in the future goes through the roof in a few short months!
DrTaras
R254->R725->S->X->M3->M3P-->R2020?
I truly want Fisker to succeed. I was Karma deposit #80! I think that it is good for the EV cause and like it or not, what negatively befalls Fisker will have an impact on Tesla.
But comparing packing for a multi-day trip and your interior volume of a Karma vs. Roadster IS comparing apples to oranges. I too was looking for a car that we could take friend out to dinner it and for ME that is where it fell short. Speaking of short, I'm not tall (5'10' with the afro), but found getting in and out of the back seat like doing the limbo. That wasn't for ME and I did not think that it would be for MY friends and was part of the deal killer for ME.
I hope that people will not malign ME because I publicly state: The Karma is not for ME. But it does not mean its not for everybody; I'm glad that donauker it is for you and hope for many more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qilMVZnNB74&feature=youtu.be&t=18s
Nice synopsis. I concur but for the caveat that I loved the exterior looks in pix & in person.
siry
Member
That thing looks massive. I always wondered how they managed 5000 pounds curb weight. The switch to iron phosphate was probably a big part of it but the architecture of the car just looks very massive and clunky in contrast to the Tesla.
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