Have to agree with you the new interface that attempts to break out parked energy usage might be fairly accurate averaged out over several days but swings wildly. It definitely does not give anything near real time accuracy. I charged yesterday morning with the car guessOmeter showing 40% SOC had a blue snowflake for a few minutes but no bacon strips. The garage and battery cell temps were around 51%F indicated it would reach 68% SOC in around two hours and 45 minutes. Reached the set 68% SOC in two hours at around 8AM; however, at noon the SOC was at back down to 61% SOC. I used my 12V Bluetooth monitor to verify the car fell asleep within 15 minutes of charging completion and did not wake until my wife drove the car at noon. So if you believed the guessOmeter you might believe the car lost 7% SOC in that four hour period but I am confident that was not the case. I did NOT verify the cell temps using SMT so I do not know the exact temps at the start and end of the charging session but it appears the SOC can very several percentage points with a ten degree cell temp swing. My wifes plugin hybrid van shows energy use real time, ie breaks out KW usage for propulsion and HVAC. You can view realtime usage with SMT but it would be nice if there was a way to monitor this info on the center screen.
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Keep phantom drain under control
- Thread starter cappo3
- Start date
It does not sound right that the cleaning the ACC filters would use up several kilowatt hours. Any regular day that I hear my AC/heat pump run after parking, I do not see a difference in SOC.
The points below is things we know usually lowers the SOC after parking:
- Wintertime, the battery cools off and Tesla use a principle of displaying lower SOC when the battery is cold than the real SOC. Depending on the ambient temperature that cools the battery and the time, the car could display 1 to 4% lower SOC than the actual SOC (that the car actually knows, but it show a lower SOC.
-When the BMS is off, overestimating the battery capacity the SOC will be adjusted downwards after a drive when the car rests after the drive or sleeps. The longer the drive, the bigger the downwards adjustmen (for a fixed level off BMS capacity estimating fault).
The bigger the BMS estimating fault the bigger the adjustement, combining with the above.
This is how it more or less always looks for me, from todays drive:
After a 50km drive, with a few stops at a shopping area (sentry on - no sleep) I parked 13:02 (1:02PM).
The car was outside at about +4C for 3hrs 15 minutes, then I started the next drive. The car showed the same SOC both after the drive and befo re the next.
Teslafi logs show 53.33% SOC before the first drive (1km drive), estimated about 53.15% when parking and 52.75% before the second, so a loss of 0.4% SOC. Sentry was on and should have used slightly more, but my BMS is probably slightly off underestimating so the SOC probably did gain a little during that 3hrs park.
As usual, the AC/heatpump clud be heard after parking. In this case, most probably shuffleing cabin heat into the battery pack.
Not completely sure but as it seems (others cars discussed at a swedish forum) if the BMS reestimate the SOC downwards during sleep if will be put into the “vampire drain“ column in the energy screen.
If it was the AC/ACC/Heatpump that used the energy it probably would have been put in that column…?
I have seen it happen in summer and winter. I used to have TeslaFi and it just showed as consumption during idle. The funny thing is that it doesn’t seem to heat or cool (a lot), as TeslaFi still showed a big temperature difference inside and outside. Not sure how much energy running a fan could use.
Disabled TeslaFi as otherwise Tesla Service didn’t want to help. I have also confirmed that actively enabling and disabling A/C after getting out of the car prevents it.
Short summary, I will probably never fully understand this car, maybe I should just accept that.
Do you have a heat pump car?
A heat pump model 3 can be parked in camping mode for more than 3 dats at 0C ambient. The heat pump/system total average some 1kW or so for this. Which would mean 6 hours to use up 7-8%.
Any fan just blowing and or cooling pump running would be fractions of this.
To use up 5% or more…it wont happen.
Blowing the fresch air filter dry would probably use like 0.1 kW of fan power for 10 minutes, thats 0.017 kWh…like 0.02% SOC.
A heat pump model 3 can be parked in camping mode for more than 3 dats at 0C ambient. The heat pump/system total average some 1kW or so for this. Which would mean 6 hours to use up 7-8%.
Any fan just blowing and or cooling pump running would be fractions of this.
To use up 5% or more…it wont happen.
Blowing the fresch air filter dry would probably use like 0.1 kW of fan power for 10 minutes, thats 0.017 kWh…like 0.02% SOC.
No heatpump yet. And you are correct, it seems to conflict with the laws of physics. Then again, the 3 kWh could be an outlier. Running the fan for an hour would be close to 1 kWh, so 2.5%. Add some cooling or heating and it could add up. Bottom line, I assume only Tesla knows what really happens in that filter cleaning procedure.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Just the fan will not be close to this. Fan is perhaps 100W or so at most (added to ~150-250W idle power - I really don't have a good feel for the exact value there (relatively easy to figure out but I never have!) but it is in that ballpark). Don't remember exactly but can measure it via the normal methods. (Watch amps on charging screen when turning things on/off and adjust for ~95% charging efficiency factor (which excludes the effect of overhead; actual overall charging efficiency is capped at around 90%) ). Of course resolution is no better than about 125-250W when using this method.
But as long as heat/AC are off, I don't think you'll see the current go up by 3A@240V when increasing fan speed, even if you increase it to max. Guess I could be wrong but not my recollection.
In any case, my point is that it can be measured to within 125-250W.
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I demoed Dog mode for my parents, when my heat pump M3P was quite new.
After that I forgot the car outside (normally parked in the garage) with the dog mode running overnight. It was not cold outside, maybe +17C that night and the temp set to 21C.
I do not remember the exact energy that was drawn but it was very little. Something like a few percent or like only having sentry on during the night.
Dog mode was running the next morning, when I saw the car outside, not charged as usual.
From teslafi logs:
Put Dogmode on 0830PM, 59%
Found the car 0630 the day behind. 53%.
Thats 10 hrs with 6% or about 4.5-5kWh energy.
After that I forgot the car outside (normally parked in the garage) with the dog mode running overnight. It was not cold outside, maybe +17C that night and the temp set to 21C.
I do not remember the exact energy that was drawn but it was very little. Something like a few percent or like only having sentry on during the night.
Dog mode was running the next morning, when I saw the car outside, not charged as usual.
From teslafi logs:
Put Dogmode on 0830PM, 59%
Found the car 0630 the day behind. 53%.
Thats 10 hrs with 6% or about 4.5-5kWh energy.
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Understood, and again, I have no way of figuring out exactly what happens. It's not exactly clear what you mean by watch amps on charging screen, how does that show consumption?
I only know:
- service confirms that the drop occurs in that one hour interval while that procedure is running
- in the summer, typically after my morning drive to work (higher humidity in morning?)
- in the winter, seems to happen both in morning and evening, pattern is less clear (higher humidity all day?)
- turning off A/C manually before leaving the vehicle or after exiting through app (by putting it on and off) prevents it from happening (but is not recommened by Tesla because filters are not cleaned)
So if nothing happens after replacing the filters, I'l just have to accept that's part of car's behavior. I'll post it here just as a reference should it be useful for others.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Just mean how to quantify the power consumption of each element. This can be done by plugging in the car and running off of shore power.
Overall I think the best way to figure out what is reasonable for this drain at this time of year is to wait for your car to go to sleep (should just hang out for 10-15 minutes until the contactors audibly open - taking longer than this would be unusual), and then go and open the car door and see what it says (and look at rated miles before and after to ensure the energy screen does not lie). I’d be surprised if it were more than a couple miles.
I did check rated kilometers through the app about an hour after parking compared to when exiting the vehicle, and it confirms the actual drop. It's not trivial as there is some variation in the drop per drive, and I'm not diligent in checking this. And once I see the drop, it's too late to go back.
Will probably test it with more rigor once I have the new filters (scheduled for tomorrow).
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
My rated miles at 100% are up to 300. From a low of 285 or so. May be related. Anyway.
Supercharged to 210 miles last night, drive home. Ran heat for a minute to dry out the filters and burned two miles. Then: Turned off HVAC to eliminate from picture. Taking it to 204miles. Left car at 10:20. Car went to sleep at 10:50.
Summary:
210 -> 206 driving
206 -> 204 heating parked
204 -> 195 sleeping overnight (12V confirmed). (Total energy screen 9 claimed - delta rmi was 9, delta energy screen was 7.9)
195->194 driving.
194->193 About 0.5 rated mile sentry. (Delta energy screen seemed to be about 2 but was also from other sitting (screen), no HVAC.) Total 11.2.
193-> 189 driving
189->184 1.25 hours sleep (12V confirmed). Total goes to 16.5.
184->173 driving
So far:
37 rated miles consumed
20.3 consumed while driving
16.5 consumed while parked (about 3-4 actual use from heat and sentry and sitting in car). So about 12 unexplained while actually definitely sleeping (presumably BMS, since it can’t be anything else!).
Temp range 52 to 63 degrees F.
Will keep an eye on remainder until it is time to charge again. (Turned off sentry. Turned off HVAC.) Maybe I’ll gain miles today!
This makes sense. So far 12 miles adjustment from a battery that very likely is closer to 290 rated miles than 300. At least they solve the problem of people complaining about their rated miles at 100% this way! It is a great solution.
This does seem like a behavior change to me. I have not seen (consistently) nearly as much shifting while parked. Every now and again I have looked for it, and have only rarely seen this sort of behavior with this magnitude (of course it happens sometimes to some degree). And I know some people have consistently seen it for years.
The sleep cycles are clearly evident in the picture below. No question it is asleep during the majority of the loss.
Supercharged to 210 miles last night, drive home. Ran heat for a minute to dry out the filters and burned two miles. Then: Turned off HVAC to eliminate from picture. Taking it to 204miles. Left car at 10:20. Car went to sleep at 10:50.
Summary:
210 -> 206 driving
206 -> 204 heating parked
204 -> 195 sleeping overnight (12V confirmed). (Total energy screen 9 claimed - delta rmi was 9, delta energy screen was 7.9)
195->194 driving.
194->193 About 0.5 rated mile sentry. (Delta energy screen seemed to be about 2 but was also from other sitting (screen), no HVAC.) Total 11.2.
193-> 189 driving
189->184 1.25 hours sleep (12V confirmed). Total goes to 16.5.
184->173 driving
So far:
37 rated miles consumed
20.3 consumed while driving
16.5 consumed while parked (about 3-4 actual use from heat and sentry and sitting in car). So about 12 unexplained while actually definitely sleeping (presumably BMS, since it can’t be anything else!).
Temp range 52 to 63 degrees F.
Will keep an eye on remainder until it is time to charge again. (Turned off sentry. Turned off HVAC.) Maybe I’ll gain miles today!
This makes sense. So far 12 miles adjustment from a battery that very likely is closer to 290 rated miles than 300. At least they solve the problem of people complaining about their rated miles at 100% this way! It is a great solution.
This does seem like a behavior change to me. I have not seen (consistently) nearly as much shifting while parked. Every now and again I have looked for it, and have only rarely seen this sort of behavior with this magnitude (of course it happens sometimes to some degree). And I know some people have consistently seen it for years.
The sleep cycles are clearly evident in the picture below. No question it is asleep during the majority of the loss.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Update. After 8 hours took another 1.6 miles (indicated zero but showed up after I parked the next time).
All vehicle standby. Well, 0.1 from Sentry which I of course had off for all but about 1 minute.
Anyway will leave car be for a while now, and we’ll see how it does.
No significant temp changes. Though will get colder now.
First picture is initial before driving, then after driving pictures. You can see the sudden jump.
Waiting for the big counterbalancing adjustment!
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Standard app that comes with monitor. Easy to see if sleeping or not.
If voltage decays, it is sleeping. If voltage is a steady voltage (there are two levels), then it is awake and either charging or floating the 12V. Really easy to see in the plots above and you can correlate it with the pictures in fact and see when I opened the doors and when I was driving.
The car has to wake up roughly every 24 hours, it can be a little longer or shorter, to recharge the 12V. Obviously this is interrupted briefly by opening the car, and even a few minutes of open doors extends the time until next recharge.
The car is sleeping great. Only 18 miles of loss in 36 hours so far. Will not be checking the updated value this morning.
Sleep looks basically perfect. Stayed awake for 30 minutes after leaving it, floating battery, probably unnecessary but not a big deal. The car doesn’t have AI, so how is it supposed to know I am home?
At 12.56V, it will wake up soon. Chilly morning, though, so it may allow a lower voltage before recharge?
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Update, the screen does not accumulate all negative losses, aka gains.
Remaining miles went up by 10, 151 to 161, “consumed while parked” went from 18.6 to 18.1.
Pretty buggy. So this means actually 8 miles over 48 hours, some of which was real useful use (about 3-4 I would say).
So 4 over two days. A bit high but in ballpark especially given BMS guesswork!
Nothing but sleeping today. Next capture in a few days will show a wake up of course when I opened the door.
Remaining miles went up by 10, 151 to 161, “consumed while parked” went from 18.6 to 18.1.
Pretty buggy. So this means actually 8 miles over 48 hours, some of which was real useful use (about 3-4 I would say).
So 4 over two days. A bit high but in ballpark especially given BMS guesswork!
Nothing but sleeping today. Next capture in a few days will show a wake up of course when I opened the door.
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Short update from my side. Filters were replaced, and the friendly service guy ran a script to better diagnoze my standby loss. I had another drop of 25 kms the night before the intervention.
Loss is again confirmed to be from A/C running for up to one hour in this drying routine. So I assume it does use heat (or cooling in summer).
The service guy doesn't understand why that procedure runs so often, he says it shouldn't. I suspect it might have been the (very) dirty filters, or maybe a flaky humidity sensor. He will look deeper into it, as he really would like to understand, and will get back to me in about a week,
I'll post any new insights I receive frim him.
Loss is again confirmed to be from A/C running for up to one hour in this drying routine. So I assume it does use heat (or cooling in summer).
The service guy doesn't understand why that procedure runs so often, he says it shouldn't. I suspect it might have been the (very) dirty filters, or maybe a flaky humidity sensor. He will look deeper into it, as he really would like to understand, and will get back to me in about a week,
I'll post any new insights I receive frim him.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
This is really far too high a loss just for this. I think if you observe a few times with climate off you’ll see similar. You can see from above that a discrepancy of 15-20km is easily explained just by BMS jumpiness. The magnitude of this of course would vary based on vehicle.
New owner here (of used 2020 M3LR). I parked today for 2 hours and it was 4.6% lost due to Vehicle Standby.
Sentry is off, it was 60F and light rain. I never touched the Tesla App. The Energy screen has it was all due to Vehicle Standby. I believe everything else is off per everything I have read.
Could the previous owner have apps installed that I don't know about?
My first day at work, it sat for a few hours and I am sure I goofed with the Tesla App, it lost 2%. Again, never had sentry or summon on.
Here is the pic. It said 4.6% since last drive, 4.7% since last charge.
Sentry is off, it was 60F and light rain. I never touched the Tesla App. The Energy screen has it was all due to Vehicle Standby. I believe everything else is off per everything I have read.
Could the previous owner have apps installed that I don't know about?
My first day at work, it sat for a few hours and I am sure I goofed with the Tesla App, it lost 2%. Again, never had sentry or summon on.
Here is the pic. It said 4.6% since last drive, 4.7% since last charge.
I charged yesterday four days after my last charging session. Please see my previous post for details on my previous charge session. The two sessions where very close to identical but I did not record as much detail on the first session. Find below details from my last charge session.
Traveled 63 miles since last charge
Started charging at 6:05AM with guessOmeter at 40%/118miles
Charging from Tesla Wall Connector @240V/40A Approx 9KW rate, car indicated a charge rate of approx 37MPH. No battery heating was required at the beginning of the charge session.
Garage temp appox 50F
HV Battery Mid Cell Temps about 50F at 6:05AM
58.5F at 6:55AM
62.2F at 7:21AM
68F at 8AM when the charging session was terminated
All temps above read by SMT except the 6:05AM reading. I was surprised the Cell temp rose about 18F during the two hour charging session.
iOS iPhone Tesla Wall connector app indicated power drawn was 18.3KW and iOS EEVEE app indicated 19.04KW
Tesla app indicated charging session indicated 19KW
The car guessOmeter showed 40%/118Miles at the start of the charging session.
The car guessOmeter showed 68%/198 miles at time of charge session termination. 118miles + (37Miles x 2 hours) = 192 Miles, close to 198 Miles
iOS EEVEE app showed 69% at end of charge and 41% at start, 81 miles and 25% added during charging session. 41% + 25% = 66% SOC.
Fired up iOS Tesla app six+ hours after the car entered sleep state at 8:05AM (verified with iOS 12V battery monitor) with the following values at 2:19PM below:
The car guessOmeter at 61%/180 miles -7%/-18 Miles less than above
SMT Mid Cell temp 59F down 9F over the 6+ hour period
Garage temp at floor level approx 50F
Verified car was asleep the entire time between 8:05AM and 2:19PM using iOS 12V battery monitor.
iOS EEVEE app indicated -7%/-19.5 loss while parked between 8:05AM and 2:19PM. I think this is due to the battery cooling 9F during that time period. This is very close to the car's guessOmeter indication above.
The BMS range estimate accuracy now appears to be very dependent on the battery cell temperature. ie... I do not believe the car consumed 7% of the battery energy during the six hours sleeping.
I forgot to record the standby power usage or WH/Mile from the center screen for either charge session. Hope this is helpful info.
UPDATE: Just woke up car at 11:50AM next day was only awake for about 10 minutes (to record info) since the last charging session.
Readings below:
guessOmeter 61%/177miles
Mid Cell Temp 50F
Since last charge Vehicle standby 7.5%
Since last drive (which was two days ago ) Vehicle standby 9.1%
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I have tested this before with climate off and no drops at all. And BMS jumpiness in one direction seems strange.
Until now no drops after filters replaced, but more data points needed to confirm.
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