Kevin Sharpe's decreased Roadster range

[Kevin Sharpe]

But here on the forum, Tesla can not defend themselves.

Sure they can... we are in the social media age and Tesla are supposed to be a 'new' company... we have legitimate concerns about battery degradation and Tesla should be here discussing them with us.

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Done

Thank you... I will concentrate on my particular issues here but will also keep the other thread abreast of the building media story.

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the degradation wound seem to be within expected norms that also happen to agree with Tesla's published guidance certainly is enlightening...

The "published guidance" is irrelevant because it's not in the warranties that we receive when we purchase a car.

Elon can quote "infinite mile" warrantees all he likes but it's meaningless unless it's in the contract that you sign.... of course we may be able to show that something on Tesla's website, or collateral, implied some degradation figure but I suspect that will not be easy.

What I think we should focus on is the fact that my car has an ideal range 199 miles, after 4 years, and 55,000 miles. The reason that's important is that every Tesla customer will face range degradation and for some (like me) it's going to be a shock when it happens.

 

[WarpedOne]

It's certainly interesting although I have no idea what "normal" degradation means because Tesla won't tell us that.

You don't understand the word "normal"? Well, I'm not that surprised in the light of this thread.

Anyway: I'm not from Tesla but still understand the word "normal" - it means what most owners get, it means the parameters that covers the most roadsters out there.
Where "most" is defined under some "usual" parameters like Gaussian distribution.

Please try to understand that owners are far better off WITHOUT A NUMBER that would mandate a warranty replacement.
Now an owner that "suffered" a 4% degradation when most others got 2% degradation is legible for a replacement because his degradation is clearly not normal.

Don't dream about a warranty above 85% nominal capacity. Even Nissan that was dragged to court in the end offered abysmally low warranty number: 70%.
Now every Leaf owner with 25% degradation after 60k miles IS NOT legible for replacement.

And now people cry because of 19% degradation after 50k and demand a new battery?

Remember this guy?

The "published guidance" is irrelevant because it's not in the warranties that we receive when we purchase a car.

I'll call it for what it is: ********

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

You don't understand the word "normal"? Well, I'm not that surprised in the light of this thread.

The only clear document is the ESA because that forms part of a contract between Tesla and myself... all the talk about "normal" is just noise based on what you think Tesla are selling you... in reality Tesla make no warranty about Roadster battery degradation whatsoever.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Based on that log file, I'm not seeing any issues with brick 8, its SOC and voltage are in line with all other bricks.

I've received a couple of comments about your analysis that I wanted to pass on...

"I don't think the log you posted recently doesn't provide the information for what they are looking for, a weak battery brick will charge and top of first.. then with balancing bleeding, and more charging topoffs most other bricks will start matching an full SOC. To get an idea what happening you need to get two snapshots, where one right after a charge to full, then drive until almost empty then take another snapshot to compare the two. To me the snapshot log you posted basically just showed the car fully top offed i.e. nearly full SOC on every brick, but we don't know the Amp hours that are available in each brick."

I will record the two logs requested and anything else that will be helpful.

 

[djp]

Possibly, but on my pack the lowest bricks are consistently low, at both full charge and low charge. I agree more data would be helpful, your ahr.log isn't consistent with your original post.

 

[WarpedOne]

The only clear document is the ESA because that forms part of a contract between Tesla and myself... all the talk about "normal" is just noise based on what you think Tesla are selling you... in reality Tesla make no warranty about Roadster battery degradation whatsoever.

In ~2008 almost everyone and their grandma were saying "batteries die", "batteries degrade", "batteries age" etc.
The common experience was on laptop batteries that go dead in couple of years. Not just degrade but die. Heck, they still do.

The only quote regarding range from Tesla is those 70% lower limit and descriptions of how they treat the battery. No guarantee nor warranty on range.

And you bought such a car and are now demanding a change in terms because you need +85% nominal range in your common routine?

And you are willing to throw mud because your childish demands are not met immediately?

Yes, BBC is mud.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Possibly, but on my pack the lowest bricks are consistently low, at both full charge and low charge.

Understood but I've reviewed several logs as a lay person and none exhibit the brick #8 behaviour I document in my OP.

I'll collect more data :smile:

 

[JRP3]

What I think we should focus on is the fact that my car has an ideal range 199 miles, after 4 years, and 55,000 miles. The reason that's important is that every Tesla customer will face range degradation and for some (like me) it's going to be a shock when it happens.

Probably not since the Model S and future vehicles use a much more durable chemistry than the Roadster, and few people do the type of driving you do. Those two facts combine to make your supposition unlikely.

The only clear document is the ESA because that forms part of a contract between Tesla and myself... all the talk about "normal" is just noise based on what you think Tesla are selling you... in reality Tesla make no warranty about Roadster battery degradation whatsoever.

Right, and you knew there was no degradation warranty in place. I would assume most Roadster owners knew that as well.

I'd like to hear what warranty you think should be in place, since we know an 80% or less warranty would not help your situation.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I support firm limits in the warranties for battery pack degradation. As my previous posts on the matter show: Standard Warranty Revealed - Page 3 (It escalates further on in the thread.)

But I think that Mr Sharpe is quite in the wrong when he demands to have his battery repaired after a mere 19% capacity loss. A reasonable limit for the Roadster would be 70% after 5 years/50k miles. This was experimental tech and the early adopters were well aware of that. Anyone who has bought a Roadster not taking into account the expected battery capacity loss bought the wrong car. That may seem harsh, but it's merely the truth. Spending over 100.000 Euros on an experimental car by a tiny startup car company, if you can't afford to lose every cent, is insane. Now, I'm very happy that the Roadster owners were in a position to help Tesla in it's startup phase, but now that Tesla is successful - that doesn't make the previous cars any newer or better. Existing LiCoO2 cells in Roadsters do *not* magically improve proportionally to the success of Tesla Motors.

For the Model S, a limit of 70% remaining capacity after 8 years/infinite number of miles seems reasonable. With the Model S, the batteries are a lot better, you get more miles per cycle, and the scale of production is in an entirely different league, so you can afford to replace a few packs for the people who drive obscene distances every year.

It's also important to remember Tesla is under no obligation to replace an defective battery pack with a new battery pack. Tesla merely needs to replace the defective battery pack with a battery pack that is within specified parameters. So, if Tesla has given a firm limit of 70% after 5 years, and you are at 65% after 4 years, Tesla would have fulfilled it's obligation by giving you a battery pack with 80% remaining capacity.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

But I think that Mr Sharpe is quite in the wrong when he demands to have his battery repaired after a mere 19% capacity loss.

Theoretical question for you... if a review of the cars logs reveals a deterioration in range following the Tesla battery repair in December 2011 do you think the battery should be repaired?

 

[dsm363]

Sure they can... we are in the social media age and Tesla are supposed to be a 'new' company... we have legitimate concerns about battery degradation and Tesla should be here discussing them with us.

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Thank you... I will concentrate on my particular issues here but will also keep the other thread abreast of the building media story.

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The "published guidance" is irrelevant because it's not in the warranties that we receive when we purchase a car.

Elon can quote "infinite mile" warrantees all he likes but it's meaningless unless it's in the contract that you sign.... of course we may be able to show that something on Tesla's website, or collateral, implied some degradation figure but I suspect that will not be easy.

What I think we should focus on is the fact that my car has an ideal range 199 miles, after 4 years, and 55,000 miles. The reason that's important is that every Tesla customer will face range degradation and for some (like me) it's going to be a shock when it happens.

You run a company that sells EVSEs. Did you really not know there would be battery degradation? That is shocking.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Theoretical question for you... if a review of the cars logs reveals a deterioration in range following the Tesla battery repair in December 2011 do you think the battery should be repaired?

If you can prove that the degradation is related to the battery repair - yes. If not - no. Battery degradation isn't entirely easy to predict, it can plateau for a while and then drop relatively sharply, it can even increase somewhat. You can't fully understand exactly what is going on inside the cells without opening them up and looking at them with a microscope. So, gradual capacity loss following a repair is no smoking gun, at far as I am concerned.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

You run a company that sells EVSEs. Did you really not know there would be battery degradation? That is shocking.

I purchased the car in July 2010 and joined TMC at the same time. I purchased the car after a single drive and nobody at Tesla discussed battery degradation with me. Maybe I was naive but no more than the people buying Model S today believing the "infinite mile" warranty covers everything.

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If you can prove that the degradation is related to the battery repair - yes. If not - no.

Lets hope Tesla deliver the early logs :smile:

 

[dsm363]

I purchased the car in July 2010 and joined TMC at the same time. I purchased the car after a single drive and nobody at Tesla discussed battery degradation with me. Maybe I was naive but no more than the people buying Model S today believing the "infinite mile" warranty covers everything.

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Lets hope Tesla deliver the early logs :smile:

But you do run a company that builds out a charging network. You bought a $100,000+ car and you didn't do any reading on batteries or know that the range will decrease over time? You've never owned a laptop or phone and noticed the battery life isn't the same 3 years later than new? You said you knew degradation wasn't covered by the warranty so you did know about degradation.

Basically you drive a lot and a single charge no longer fits your needs so you are trying to score a free repair or upgrade with a smear campaign. That's my view at least. Good luck.

 

[ecarfan]

You run a company that sells EVSEs. Did you really not know there would be battery degradation? That is shocking.

Kevin, what is the name of the company that you "run" and are employed by? I am curious, this was news to me.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

But you do run a company that builds out a charging network

Correct, started in 2012 when the charity ZCW required charging stations for it's donation programme.

You bought a $100,000+ car and you didn't do any reading on batteries or know that the range will decrease over time?

Correct, I purchased a beautiful sports car that happened to be electric. I repeat what I said earlier, you will find lots of Model S owners in the same boat. I had a heated conversation with a new owner yesterday who insisted the "infinite mile" warranty covered battery degradation (which is what I also thought until very recently).

You need to remember these are cars and being sold as such not science projects for the weekend.

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Kevin, what is the name of the company that you "run" and are employed by? I am curious, this was news to me.

See my footer... I own several companies that make electronics/computing products in both the US and EU... one of those builds charging stations and components that we then either donate through the Zero Carbon World charity, or sell at cost to support EV and PV transition.

In this video for example we used a Protocol Controller that we developed and sell at cost to end users so they can build charging stations;

 

[ggr]

I suggested updating the title to focus more on that, but the OP seemed to think I was trying to make the title more 'Tesla friendly' and preferred the title and topic stay exactly as it is. I think perhaps it would be better to start a new thread specifically discussing that and let this one die, hopefully.

Dare I suggest that the title should be edited to correct "degradation"? ;-)

 

[scaesare]

The "published guidance" is irrelevant because it's not in the warranties that we receive when we purchase a car.

Of course it's relevant. Without specific parameters spelled out in writing, it gave those interested in educating themselves some idea of what to expect. Tesla (nor any other EV manufacturer) has never attempted to hide the fact that batteries degrade over time.

Did you expect that, despite exclusions in writing, that you were guaranteed anything? Absent that, you don't think guidance as to what an owner should expect is relevant?

Odd.

Elon can quote "infinite mile" warrantees all he likes but it's meaningless unless it's in the contract that you sign.... of course we may be able to show that something on Tesla's website, or collateral, implied some degradation figure but I suspect that will not be easy.

Disclosure of battery degradation, and it's exclusion from warranty, doesn't even have to wait for contract signing. I found this in 30 seconds on the web site:

The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT 
covered under this Battery Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important 
information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.

Stuff is excluded from coverage in terms all the time. Would you care to claim as a customer you didn't KNOW this... or if you DID know it was excluded you decided to sign the contract anyway, yet don't bear the liability?

What I think we should focus on is the fact that my car has an ideal range 199 miles, after 4 years, and 55,000 miles. The reason that's important is that every Tesla customer will face range degradation and for some (like me) it's going to be a shock when it happens.

I'm sure you do think that. It steers away from the fact that you apparently have decided that buying a car for which there was expectation set as to what the battery lifetime might be, with a warranty that excluded that degradation, and ultimately have experienced behavior within that range, is a legally actionable set of circumstances.

Again: odd.

 

[Doug_G]

We clearly have two topics intertwined here and I suggest we separate my Roadster issues from the wider degradation issues that impact all Tesla customers. I would like to keep this thread title and contents so that we do not destroy the flow of this thread (most split threads are a disaster IMO). I will then post the ongoing story of my Roadster here as it unfolds.

Another member has already started an appropriate thread. I'll not try to split the previous postings at this point, but I will try to corral new postings that talk about the wider issues over to that thread.

Dare I suggest that the title should be edited to correct "degradation"?

I'll go fix the spelling error!

 

[Krugerrand]

Where can I send money so Mr. Sharpe can buy that ICE?