Kevin Sharpe's decreased Roadster range

[dsm363]

Part of the problem is you have somewhat arbitrarily assigned your personal regular trip length, which is far beyond normal, as the default cutoff point. What would you say to someone who can't use their Roadster for their regular journeys after only 15% degradation, or 10% degradation? The only difference in those instances is they have slightly longer regular trips than you do. You would all be well within Tesla's expected loss for the Roadster, would you find their claims reasonable as well?

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Sure, but if you think you've been treated unfairly does your response still need to be fair, especially when confronted with a "larger" opponent?

Exactly. If I had a second home or something 190 miles away that I went to every weekend but after two years couldn't do it anymore I certainly wouldn't be on the internets or twitter or Facebook complaining about it.

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One other point, while Kevin has done quite a lot of pro Tesla promotion he's also spent a good amount of time previous to this criticizing them, especially for building the Model S instead of a next generation Roadster. Neither position should factor into whether or not he gets the service he wants.

Imagine where Tesla would be if they had listened to him with that strategy. They'd be selling maybe 3,000 cars a year. Maybe.

 

[wycolo]

I don't think I've purchased an Extended Warrantee for anything, one reason being that these are often 3rd party products with all that that implies. If this particular warranty is from TM, Inc then I'd wonder about just how this was set up, i.e. what actuarial basis was used. On a $40k battery the amount Kevin paid ($21k) is over half! Is this normal; has anyone here ever coughed up $21k for just such a piece of paper?? That's a whole lotta insurance/good will/etc that you'd think would give him a bit more 'red carpet' treatment than he seems to be getting.

So 'laptop grade' 18650s are no longer available to do repairs on Roadsters? Reminds me of the time when the FDA had not yet approved superglue and surgeons just walked down the street to a hardware store and bought a tube of the stuff off the shelf so they could perform operations.
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[Doug_G]

The Roadster cells have not been manufactured for some time. Cell manufacturers routinely discontinue their obsolete products. They only make better cells now.

 

[djp]

Tesla battery range degredation forcing return to gas

On a $40k battery the amount Kevin paid ($21k) is over half! Is this normal; has anyone here ever coughed up $21k for just such a piece of paper??

It wasn't $21K for the battery warranty, it was $21K for the full car warranty plus the battery warranty. In the US/Canada the three year battery warranty as a standalone ESA is $7.5K.

I think the key takeaway from this situation for other Roadster owners is that there isn't a lot of value in the battery warranty, and you'll probably be better off self-funding or waiting for the 400 mile replacement rather than buying the battery ESA.

 

[JRP3]

Also, for any EV owner, if your regular trips are 80% or more of your pack capacity be prepared for limitations. Inclement weather could induce such a loss even in a newer vehicle.

 

[stopcrazypp]

- gave a capacity warranty for 70% (approx) for 60k miles. They have without fuss replaced under warranty so far with new more durable batteries

Nissan's capacity warranty is actually 66% for 5 years / 60k miles. This is completely worthless for Kevin as he's at 81% at 55,519 miles. There's no way he will degrade another 15% in less than 4500 miles.

It's almost a meaningless warranty except for a handful of people that was affected by the original Leaf battery's horrible hot weather degradation. It's unlikely there are any Roadster owners that will be covered by such a warranty (and not covered already by the defect one).

- went one step further and announced an amazing battery replacement price which is very fair and even lower than many expected.

We may be seeing something similar with the "400 mile" pack.

 

[dpeilow]

I don't recall Kevin saying that Tesla should build another Roadster before the Model S. Prepared to be proved wrong if you have a source though.

In satellite engineering we size the satellite power system to support the payload at End Of Life. You calculate the aging of the solar panels and batteries over the expected (usually 15 year) lifetime. I bought my Roadster with similar expectations, based on that early blog post.

However, I expect a gradual decline in capacity and not a sudden drop off. If the same thing happens to my car I will also not be happy, especially if a paid replacement of a sheet is not an option.

 

[Chickenlittle]

I did exactly this from April 2012 to August 2014 and it achieved nothing. I communicated directly with the Country Director for Tesla UK and previously the Director who was responsible for Europe. I'm a customer who purchased the extended "warranty" and I should never have been put in the position where my car deteriorated to the point where it is no longer usable for my regular journeys.

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You are entitled to your opinion but I don't have to listen to it.

I have documented the history of my issues with Tesla in the OP and this was all done under the radar while I was busy promoting Tesla at ten events a year. Like it or not, Roadster owners in the UK are very worried about what's happening and while they may not be voicing it publicly today they will.

Whether my battery issues are degradation due to age/mileage/whatever or a 'faulty' repair by Tesla in 2011 I can't be certain but I do know that my car has now degraded to the point it's no longer useful and it did that under the full watch of Tesla.

I will use every means open to me because I believe Tesla cannot treat customers in this way... in the social media age twitter is highly effective as you'll see next week when the story is on the BBC.

Besides the issue of right or wrong, I suspect you are going about it wrong. I doubt a company would "cave to your demand" because of your publicity campaign. I believe they would just be begging for more negative publicity for other demands. Have to ask, how are you going to sell your car should you decide to? The publicity campaign will hurt your chances. We all know that cars after years are not equivalent. Some are driven harder, batteries may have had more range chargers used in performance mode more often etc. your issues would raise to my mind whether the car could have been driven harder. I am new roadster owner but have owned model s for more than 18 months. I have supported tesla as well but never asked for any priority treatment. I did so because I believe in the company and want to see if do well not to get something in return

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

if I understand correctly, Tesla offered both a battery Extended Service Agreement (ESA), and also a Battery Replacement Agreement (BRA). I assume Mr. Sharpe did not purchase the latter, or he would have exercised that option instead of making a claim under the ESA.

The BRA was not available in the UK. If it had been then I would have purchased one because I had a 14 year ownership plan... 4 years original warranty, 3 years extended warranty, then buy a new and improved pack at 7 years with another ESA if required.

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Besides the issue of right or wrong, I suspect you are going about it wrong. I doubt a company would "cave to your demand" because of your publicity campaign.

You are mistaken if you think this is one UK Roadster owner concerned about keeping his car on the road. The BBC today contacted a number of owners requesting interviews for Friday's Radio 4 "You and Yours" consumer affairs programme. Battery degradation and the associated warranty (or lack thereof) are going to be a big issue here.

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If you look carefully at Tesla's statement, they have already looked specifically at the number 8 brick (the weakest one) and determined that the specific brick has degraded at a rate that's considered normal and was operating as normal (AKA not defective). That is why they are unwilling to replace that brick/sheet. Tesla isn't only considering the pack as a whole.

I suspect that my Brick 8 issues started when Tesla undertook a battery repair in November 2011 (see OP). Before that repair my range was consistent with other Roadsters but afterwards the range deteriorated and has continued to do so until this day. I could never get Tesla to look at the possibility of a faulty component (or bodged ESS repair) because they are fixated by the idea that the ESS is within acceptable limits.

Interestingly, on the day the BBC start interviewing UK Roadster owners I get an email from Director of Service, North America. What a shame I couldn't get anyone in Tesla to take these issues seriously during the previous two years.

 

[Mitrovic]

What a difficult topic! What a difficult issue!

I do not know all the details. So I can not judge. My impression is that the whole topic hurts the EV movement. It does not just hurt Tesla, but the whole movement. People at Tesla might have handled Kevin's problem wrong - I do not know if this is really the case, but it could be - but is it worth to take the whole EV moment down?

I can only tell what I know. This is: I did buy the extension warranty for my battery pack and my battery pack failed. The car did not work anymore. Tesla replaced my battery at no further cost. I am daily commuting with my roadster.

Please Kevin and Tesla find a solution, stop to fight in the public, it never helps anybody.

 

[ecarfan]

Tesla battery range degredation forcing return to gas

The broader issue is that EV batteries inevitably suffer a loss of capacity over time and the car-buying public is by and large ignorant of that fact (many though not all EV owners have some awareness of that issue). The public generally (in my opinion) assumes that a new EV with a range of X miles will still have that range after 5 years. After all, their ICE can go just as far after many years, why should an EV be different? They don't see the difference. And EV manufacturers may be less than forthcoming about the battery degradation issue when trying to sell cars.

Of course Kevin is saying he has excessive degradation. I am not going to pass judgement on his opinion except to say I certainly understand his concern and sympathize.

If my S85 still has 85% of its original SOC after 5 years and 100,000 miles (I will probably get to 20,000 miles after one year of ownership) I'll be satisfied with that. If it has 80% or less I will be disappointed.

 

[dhanson865]

What a difficult topic! What a difficult issue!

I do not know all the details. So I can not judge. My impression is that the whole topic hurts the EV movement. It does not just hurt Tesla, but the whole movement. People at Tesla might have handled Kevin's problem wrong - I do not know if this is really the case, but it could be - but is it worth to take the whole EV moment down?

I can only tell what I know. This is: I did buy the extension warranty for my battery pack and my battery pack failed. The car did not work anymore. Tesla replaced my battery at no further cost. I am daily commuting with my roadster.

Please Kevin and Tesla find a solution, stop to fight in the public, it never helps anybody.

somewhat agree but I don't think Kevin is adverse to keeping this quiet. If Tesla had responded to his satisfaction in the past we would have never heard of this.

 

[Canuck]

The broader issue is that EV batteries inevitably suffer a loss of capacity over time and the car-buying public is by and large ignorant of that fact (many though not all EV owners have some awareness of that issue). The public generally (in my opinion) assumes that an EV with a range of X miles will still have that range after 5 years.

From my experience the opposite is true. Just this morning a colleague was mentioning to me that my car's lithium ion battery would be "dead" in about five years, at most, just like all the laptop, cordless drills, etc., he has owned with lithium ion batteries. I have had to tell so many people that while the chemistry is similar, the way the battery is charged and discharged, and manages its temperature, makes the battery last longer that these batteries last in other applications. Like most people, he was sceptical of what I was telling him. I think the vast majority of people think electric cars need battery replacement after 5 years unlike the engine in their ICE cars and very few think they will have the same range after 5 years.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

many though not all EV owners have some awareness of that issue

I'm not sure about that... on Speak EV (here) several Model S owners seem to be surprised that they have no degradation warranty...

"Yes it's strange, previous emails from [email protected] stated below 70% capacity within 8 years would trigger warrranty issue.. but it's it not in writing then you are screwed"

I know nothing about the Model S warranty but if this is true I'm astounded

 

[JRP3]

I don't recall Kevin saying that Tesla should build another Roadster before the Model S. Prepared to be proved wrong if you have a source though.

Don't have a link handy, but I do remember having that discussion with him in at least one thread here. I'm fairly sure if you ask him he will admit it since I'm also fairly sure I didn't hallucinate the exchange. I also recall Kevin being rather critical of Tesla in the Brodergate event, basically accusing Tesla of faking the log data.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Don't have a link handy, but I do remember having that discussion with him in at least one thread here. I'm fairly sure if you ask him he will admit it since I'm also fairly sure I didn't hallucinate the exchange. I also recall Kevin being rather critical of Tesla in the Brodergate event, basically accusing Tesla of faking the log data.

I'm happy to debate these topics again but suggest we do it in the appropriate threads (if we can find them)... for now I think we should focus on Tesla battery warranties.

 

[JRP3]

I have had to tell so many people that while the chemistry is similar...

Actually you can tell them that the LiNiCoAlO2, (NCA), Tesla cells are quite different than the LiCo laptop cells most people are familiar with. Laptop cells last around 500 cycles, Tesla cells last 2000+ cycles.

 

[apacheguy]

If my S85 still has 85% of its original SOC after 5 years and 100,000 miles (I will probably get to 20,000 miles after one year of ownership) I'll be satisfied with that. If it has 80% or less I will be disappointed.

I'm with you. Unfortunately, if that were to happen, Tesla will likely say that your battery is performing "within spec" and they would therefore take no action. Then you might come here on TMC and post about it to see what other owners think. By and large it seems that most members here will say "Well, Tesla says it's within spec/guidance so I don't think you have a right to complain."

Fortunately, though, I remain optimistic that the MS will retain at least 85% of its capacity after 100 K and this issue will hopefully never arise unless an owner does something foolish like letting it sit repeatedly at high SOC or repeatedly deep cycling the pack.

 

[bonnie]

I'm happy to debate these topics again but suggest we do it in the appropriate threads (if we can find them)... for now I think we should focus on Tesla battery warranties.

I think the issue was that you brought up how you've supported Tesla and expected better treatment - so this discussion seemed on-topic, considering.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Fortunately, though, I remain optimistic that the MS will retain at least 85% of its capacity after 100 K

Imagine for a moment that you're at 80% after 55K miles and Tesla say that this is normal degradation. What options do you have?