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Koch brothers set to make new assault on EVs

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#21
Ktowntslafan said:
I don't really see the point of this exercise.
Click to expand...

Ok. You are the one who replied to my thread. Lets at least be honest with the word "subsidy" because the average person is going to understand it as a direct cash or favorable policy financial incentive to one company or industry. Name ONE business in the U.S. that does not receive a subsidy of some sort, or even yet ONE person. Everything is subsidized to a certain extent, including every child, homeowner, EV buyer, student, retired person, worker, driver, etc. One persons tax deduction/credit is anothers subsidy.

And again, I am not moved by some random meme that is intentionally exaggerative.
 
#22
flankspeed8 said:
And again, I am not moved by some random meme that is intentionally exaggerative.
Click to expand...

Moved now?

image.jpeg
 
#23
Ktowntslafan said:
Moved now?
Click to expand...

Nope, sorry. I saw that tweet before I commented here, and I've read the article before Elon tweeted it.

Less than 1% of cars on the road are EVs. Saying that the operating cost should be increased for more than 99% of vehicles on the road will never gain traction.

Tesla can and is building a superior product. Using that method to sway customers away from ICEs won't work for everyone, but they will sway some.

Based on the 2015 IRS tax tables, a single individual must have a taxable income greater than or equal to $46800 to have a tax liability of $7500 to be eligible for the full tax credit. A married couple would need an income of $56150.

Looking up median incomes in the U.S. is somewhat vague, but most of the numbers I see indicate that the median income is less than the threshold for being eligible for the full $7500 tax credit.

If Tesla really wants to build a mainstream car (I genuinely believe they do), I think they are better off without this subsidy. Yes, I know S'toon pointed out that it's not a Tesla subsidy, but I haven't been able to figure out what EV subsidies the Koch brothers are going after.
 
#25
Ktowntslafan said:
All is explained here. Koch Bros. aren't currently paying for trash collection:

Elon Musk's Answer to Ending Global Warming - Fortune

Full talk here (please share):

Ktowntslafan on Twitter:

So if Koch Bros. and others (ICE auto manufacturers incl.) start paying for their pollution, then EV's won't require subsidies. Until a carbon tax is enacted, hefty subsidies are in order.
Click to expand...

*sigh* I understand the argument you've been making. You aren't the first one to make it. That's not what I asked.

Is trash collection of carbon emissions actually occurring? I thought it was being left out in the atmosphere.
 
#31
Ktowntslafan said:
LOL! So many externalities not accounted for...#climatechange #airpollution #healthcare #insurance etc...


View attachment 112030

You have to factor this stuff in:


Fossil fuels subsidised by $10m a minute, says IMF | Environment | The Guardian
Click to expand...



Have you looked at what is included in the IMF study? What they include as subsidies are mainly costs of climate change and health costs but just over 12% is due to the costs of accidents congestion and road damage. I guess they expect electric cars won't have accidents or cause congestion and road damage. The health costs are for outdoor air pollution. If you look at deaths caused by air pollution more than 50% are from indoor pollution caused by the poor not having access to external energy and so they burn wood, coal, dung etc for cooking and heat. If there wasn't so much cheap fossil fuel energy the number without external energy would be much higher. So the study should also show the benefits of cheap fossil fuels. Our entire way of modern life is based on cheap energy. So until the cost and availability of renewables can replace fossil fuels the "subsidies" that are included in the IMF study are ridiculous.
 
#32
rays427 said:
Our entire way of modern life is based on cheap energy. So until the cost and availability of renewables can replace fossil fuels the "subsidies" that are included in the IMF study are ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Which is why reasonable people are often skeptical about so much of the GW argument. It seems to often be all about shock headlines, generalities and over exaggerations. The movement does not need to resort to these tactics, it is beneath it.
 
#33
It is ironic that Elon cited the IMF report after he pointed out the ridiculousness of the LA Times article about the $4.9 billion subsidies that his companies have and have not yet received. (I'm not criticizing him over the LA Times article; I believe he was justified.) My point is both articles are over the top in ridiculousness and should be called out accordingly.
 
#34
So how is this narrative going to go?

I've been made myself look foolish before around here trying to make like I know marketing, so why not try again! Just for fun:


  • Oil gives jobs to honest americans (cue 'Merica images, and pickup trucks and families)
  • Oil allows you to drive anytime, anywhere, for however long you like. Freedom. (Images of young people driving in the middle of nowhere to impressive vistas)
  • Oil does not force you to plan. You can be spontaneous! (Spontaneousness images. Like non-speaking extras running out to a car for an instant road trip.)
  • Oil allows you to get some more fuel whenever and wherever is convenient. (View of an EV driver hunting for a charging spot vs a a friendly full-service fuel stop at every corner)
  • Oil does not force you to pay thousands of dollars to an electrician to modify your home for your car (cue puppies and unicorns in petroleum land).
  • Oil is so much simpler to use. (EV driver fumbling with adapters and RFID fobs. And the waiting a long time).

This is all in jest. Of course, actual marketing folks around here can probably predict what the smartest moves would be for the Koch think-tanks!
 
#35
rays427 said:
Have you looked at what is included in the IMF study? What they include as subsidies are mainly costs of climate change and health costs but just over 12% is due to the costs of accidents congestion and road damage. I guess they expect electric cars won't have accidents or cause congestion and road damage. The health costs are for outdoor air pollution. If you look at deaths caused by air pollution more than 50% are from indoor pollution caused by the poor not having access to external energy and so they burn wood, coal, dung etc for cooking and heat. If there wasn't so much cheap fossil fuel energy the number without external energy would be much higher. So the study should also show the benefits of cheap fossil fuels. Our entire way of modern life is based on cheap energy. So until the cost and availability of renewables can replace fossil fuels the "subsidies" that are included in the IMF study are ridiculous.
Click to expand...

That's why I wish companies like Tesla would go ahead and do original research into these comparisons so they can come to market with real studies. Of course, they might be prejudiced, but if they give study data, then independent researchers could verify.
 
#36
  • Oil gives jobs to honest americans (cue 'Merica images, and pickup trucks and families)

    Like you can fit a family in a pickup truck.
  • Oil allows you to drive anytime, anywhere, for however long you like. Freedom. (Images of young people driving in the middle of nowhere to impressive vistas)

    In congested traffic, with toxic fumes, and costing a lot.
  • Oil does not force you to plan. You can be spontaneous! (Spontaneousness images. Like non-speaking extras running out to a car for an instant road trip.)

    Well, that's true. It's also true with EV.
  • Oil allows you to get some more fuel whenever and wherever is convenient. (View of an EV driver hunting for a charging spot vs a a friendly full-service fuel stop at every corner)

    I carry full gas cans because sometimes I run out of gas while driving. It's not quite that convenient, unless you're rich and don't drive often and far enough.
  • Oil does not force you to pay thousands of dollars to an electrician to modify your home for your car (cue puppies and unicorns in petroleum land).

    Total BS. You pay through the NOSE for the "unconditioned" space that holds the toxic fuels vehicle to ventilate out into the atmosphere rather than into your home. That real estate can be reclaimed for conditioned space with many electric vehicles; while they still need ventilation, it's not as much, and can increase the land value of that garage space because it would become a more habitable place (used for more functions than a non-conditioned place; more laundry, more storage, more work, etc.). In fact, EVs prefer conditioned spaces.
  • Oil is so much simpler to use. (EV driver fumbling with adapters and RFID fobs. And the waiting a long time).

    Oh yeah, like finding, getting to while open, and waiting in line at Costco, with a credit card rather than cash, is convenient. And having to pull over all the time to get gas just because I "ran out" or "am low". The only reason you'd have to ever do that in an EV is if you're on a long distance trip to a place that doesn't have destination charging, and one of the beauties of life is that you can implement the destination charging solutions yourself (picking the hotel, the city, installing the home, etc).

I just paid $1,500 to repair an ICE caused by mechanical breakdown of parts that aren't the same size or shape in an EV (motor mounts, transmission mount). If my motor hadn't developed excess twist, the mount wouldn't have worn out. While Tesla does have motor mounts, they're smaller and have fewer torsional mounting points than an ICE which has like 2 changes of directions of twist (piston -> shaft; shaft -> axle). That repair alone would pay for half a total home EV charging installation (of a good high speed one).

Koch will come up with stuff far more effective than the debunkable comments I made; the only thing that will win back at Koch are hard facts, and since Tesla is a bunch of lying concealing corporate droids, that's not coming from them. Good timing, Koch (after the Tesla community implosion and impending Trump candidacy; I see Trump as plastic but fact based and easily persuaded by facts as presented (however slanted), and Tesla as an awesome future element, but right now, Tesla just got laid bare with all of their hiding and lies and inability to come to market, and now Koch will run the show. We have to really take point as advocates for EV and solar to Trump, because I believe if we present true evidence to Trump he'll listen).
 
Last edited:
#37
Ulmo said:
  • Oil gives jobs to honest americans (cue 'Merica images, and pickup trucks and families)

    Like you can fit a family in a pickup truck.
  • Oil allows you to drive anytime, anywhere, for however long you like. Freedom. (Images of young people driving in the middle of nowhere to impressive vistas)

    In congested traffic, with toxic fumes, and costing a lot.
  • Oil does not force you to plan. You can be spontaneous! (Spontaneousness images. Like non-speaking extras running out to a car for an instant road trip.)

    Well, that's true. It's also true with EV.
  • Oil allows you to get some more fuel whenever and wherever is convenient. (View of an EV driver hunting for a charging spot vs a a friendly full-service fuel stop at every corner)

    I carry full gas cans because sometimes I run out of gas while driving. It's not quite that convenient, unless you're rich and don't drive often and far enough.
  • Oil does not force you to pay thousands of dollars to an electrician to modify your home for your car (cue puppies and unicorns in petroleum land).

    Total BS. You pay through the NOSE for the "unconditioned" space that holds the toxic fuels vehicle to ventilate out into the atmosphere rather than into your home. That real estate can be reclaimed for conditioned space with many electric vehicles; while they still need ventilation, it's not as much, and can increase the land value of that garage space because it would become a more habitable place (used for more functions than a non-conditioned place; more laundry, more storage, more work, etc.). In fact, EVs prefer conditioned spaces.
  • Oil is so much simpler to use. (EV driver fumbling with adapters and RFID fobs. And the waiting a long time).

    Oh yeah, like finding, getting to while open, and waiting in line at Costco, with a credit card rather than cash, is convenient. And having to pull over all the time to get gas just because I "ran out" or "am low". The only reason you'd have to ever do that in an EV is if you're on a long distance trip to a place that doesn't have destination charging, and one of the beauties of life is that you can implement the destination charging solutions yourself (picking the hotel, the city, installing the home, etc).
Click to expand...
I think I did not make myself clear: I was imagining what that industry will focus on in that assault on EVs.
I don't want us to debunk any of them, as am sure that has been done many times over around here over the years.
 
#38
3s-a-charm said:
That sucks... but Alberta hasn't ever had EV subsidies (Federal, Provincial or otherwise). Price on the sticker is the price you pay.
Click to expand...

No. You pay the sticker price plus 5% GST which is less than what we pay in BC. In BC on a $100k Tesla our PST goes from 7% to 10% (the "luxury" tax), plus 5% GST = $15k less $5k rebate = $10k. That's $5k more than in Alberta on the exact same vehicle with no EV rebate.
 
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