TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Koch versus Solar

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by Cosmacelf, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    San Diego
    Why? Because he's pro-choice? Or for gay marriage? Or doesn't want our grandkids having to pay our debts? That he gives away tons of money to the arts, medical centers, and foundations that help the poor? What actual position does he advocate that makes you say he is a terrible person?
     
  2. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,403
    Location:
    United States
    He finances efforts to suppress distributed generation to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. The organization he primarily funds ALEC attempted to force a fee of ~$50/m on Arizonans for the 'privilege' of using solar. This isn't about politics or ideology. He uses his wealth to bully others through legislation.

    Repealing 'net-metering' is one thing. Koch wants to destroy the economic viably of DG.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/alec-freerider-homeowners-assault-clean-energy

    Then there's his persistent denial of AGW. Wherever there's millions being spent clouding the science around climate change or pressuring politicians to impose fees or stop encouraging wind/solar Koch money isn't far.

    Basically the Koch brothers are the NADA of energy... x10...
     
  3. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    San Diego
    ALEC's actual position on net metering is pretty benign. Here, verbatim, is their policy resolution on net-metering, adopted sometime this year:

    1. Update net metering policies to require that everyone who uses the grid helps pay to maintain it and to keep it operating reliably at all times;

    2. Create a fixed grid charge or other rate mechanisms that recover grid costs from DG systems to ensure that costs are transparent to the customer; and

    3. Ensure electric rates are fair and affordable for all customers and that all customers have safe and reliable electricity.

    I like net metering as much as the next guy. But current net metering plans do make people without PV solar effectively subsidize those that have it. This can be remedied by a simple and not too expensive grid tie in fixed fee. I don't find the ALEC resolution above extreme at all, more like common sense.
     
  4. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,403
    Location:
    United States
    We're drifting rather far from the topic of this thread but there's what ALEC says and what ALEC tried to do; The FACT is that they tried to get a fee imposed of $7/kW installed PER MONTH in Arizona. I have 10kW... I'd be paying $70/month!! For generating my own power!! Even if I NEVER used the grid!! On average Solar customers in AZ would have been paying ~$50/month just for solar. That's insane. Koch doesn't want renewables to play fair... he wants them dead. I'm not a fan of net-metering either but a fee on production or capacity is an attack on renewables. I wrote an anti-net-metering blog.

    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/entry.php/167-NET-METERING-Four-reasons-Net-Metering-is-no-longer-our-friend

    http://www.azcentral.com/business/arizonaeconomy/articles/20131113arizona-solar-new-fees-showdown.html
     
  5. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    San Diego
    But it wasn't ALEC proposing those particular fees - it was the power company, wasn't it? What ended up happening in Arizona anyways?
     
  6. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,919
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Last week, Arizona regulators gave the state’s largest utility, Arizona Public Service(PNW), the authority to charge homeowners with solar panels on their roofs a fee for plugging into the grid and in some cases, selling electricity back onto it. Beginning next year, homeowners who install rooftop solar systems will have to pay a monthly levy—the first ever in the U.S.—equal to 70¢ per kilowatt of installed capacity.

    http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-22/arizonas-new-fee-puts-a-dent-in-rooftop-solar-economics
     
  7. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,403
    Location:
    United States
    #7 nwdiver, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    ALEC is a $$$ and lobbying group... they provided the firepower for what APS wanted to do... they did fall short of what they wanted but a fee on production is the least effective kind of fee and only serves to discourage solar. If the argument is that solar generators aren't paying for grid use then....... here's a crazy idea...... charge them a fee for grid use. NOT solar use. APS, ALEC and Koch aren't interested in making the system fair... they want to protect the status quo...

    http://www.azcentral.com/business/arizonaeconomy/articles/20131114aps-solar-customer-bills-higher.html

    This is far from unbiased but it's a good explanation for what happened in AZ...



    I think we should hash out a deal with the Koch and their ilk.... A carbon tax in exchange for a repeal of net metering :smile:
     
  8. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    San Diego
    #8 Cosmacelf, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
    So for a 10kW system, a fairly typical half decent sized rooftop solar system, you are getting charged an extra $7/month on your bill? To use the grid as a giant battery? Sounds ... Pretty fair to me.

    And actually, nwdiver, your bill isn't going up at all, it is only for new PV installs after dec. 31.
     
  9. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,842
    Location:
    Portland, Maine, USA
    The Koch bros. have also been the primary funders for the groups trying to block development of Cape Wind, the 468 MW offshore wind project in Nantucket Sound.
     
  10. scott2613

    scott2613 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    The Koch brothers were behind the same regulations just passed in Wisconsin. They have effectively ruined solar here in the near term. Although I'm grandfathered and not subject to the new charges, they would be huge. My system is 72kW. They tried the same thing in Georgia but the Tea Party defeated them there. They, like most large corporations just use politics and ideology to suit their economic interests. And regarding philanthropy, organized crime, car dealers and many others do that too. It's tax deductible and good for business.
     
  11. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,403
    Location:
    United States
    This has made for some very unusual alliances....

    la-na-tt-koch-brothers-new-foe-20140502.jpeg
     
  12. rolosrevenge

    rolosrevenge Dr. EVS

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,851
    Location:
    Right behind you...
    Along with the Kennedy's
     
  13. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,842
    Location:
    Portland, Maine, USA
    While the Kennedy's opposition has been the most visible, I don't think they've put much cash behind it. It takes cash to pursue endless appeals that hold up licenses.
     
  14. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    San Diego
    But it is extremely hypocritical lambasting Koch for opposing Cape while giving the Kennedys a free pass.
     
  15. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,403
    Location:
    United States
    If we were criticizing people for opposing renewables for aesthetic reasons that would be true... I think the general theme here is that the Kochs oppose renewables because they're a threat to their business.
     
  16. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    San Diego
    So the Kennedys get a pass because they object to renewables for the right reasons?
     
  17. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,403
    Location:
    United States
    No.... opposing renewables because they're not pretty is just as bad... this thread is about how the Kochs systematically oppose all renewable projects to protect their business interests....

    If you want to start a NIMBY thread feel free...

    I do think there's a slight difference between opposing one wind farm because it might spoil your view and spending $MILLIONS$ pushing back against solar/wind on as many fronts as you can afford...
     
  18. DuncanWatson

    DuncanWatson Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Not really. Complaining based on the commitment put in is perfectly fine. Additionally the Kennedys are nothing to Democrats other than history, your comments are just trying to evoke emotion. Koch is the face of conservatism in the US because it is the money, the actions and the lies that conservatism is in the US.
     
  19. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,842
    Location:
    Portland, Maine, USA
  20. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    4,678
    Location:
    Timonium, Maryland
    Like some very wealthy people the charity is both a tax dodge and a cover for the awful things done to aquire the wealth. I'll bet that the Koch's give away a much lower proprtion of their wealth that the poor -- IRS data shows that the poor and middle classes are miuch more generous givers (as a proportion of income) than the rich. The Koch's giving for them is chump change and it can't possbily make up for the harm this family is doing to our planet. IMHO when the worst of the impacts of climate change are realized their names will be held in the highest contempt.
     

Share This Page