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Disagree with Elon, 400 EPA miles is NOT enough

FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
201
265
Northern Wi
When the Plaid+ S was canceled, one reason Elon gave was anything over 400 miles doesn't matter. Elon said, “What we are seeing is that once you have a range above 400 miles, more range doesn’t really matter," he said. "There are essentially zero trips above 400 miles where the driver doesn’t need to stop for restroom, food, coffee, etc. anyway.”

Ok, BUT... Those are EPA, perfect condition, summer miles. With our late 2020 H battery X, LR++ and the 2nd longest distance offered by ANY EV (371 EPA miles), I'm seriously afraid it won't be enough in the winter to go 207 miles to our cabin in the U. P. of Michigan. Did a VERY realistic January trip into ABetterRoutePlanner, which seems to be pretty close to what we do in the summer, says 0 deg F, 100% speed limit (no speeding), a little snow and get 100---> -2% battery, so my 371mile almost longest range car, can't do 207 miles! (Sure they just added a Super Charger in Marquete, but so far out of the way, charge from 40-->100 there and STILL don't make it, so not a choice).

What we need is more SuperChargers in these remote areas, like western U.P. or Northern Wis. Then 400 miles would be ok, but we are not there today.

So solutions: 1. Give me 400 miles at 75 mph in the winter, THEN I agree with Elon.
2. Hope the public J1772 Charger in Houghton is available and stop there for an hour to make up energy getting there. Home then at 8%, so doable.
3. OR I can Charge at 11 KWh at a winery destination charger 30 miles out of the way for 2 hours to make up the out-of-the-way travel plus needed range.
4. OR Slow charge at 11KWh at a nice person's house along the way, using PlugShare, probably 1.5 hours adder and are they home on that day?
Note: This total trip is 4 hours, 2 hours charging adds 50% more time.
5. Or keep our gas burning, Environment ruining Caddy SRX SUV for 4 trips a year (what a waste). But guaranteed to make it in that one.
6. Or Don't go on trip. Not the 'future of transportation" I was looking for when bought full electric long range X.
7. OR, most likely solution, use our 2019 Chevy Volt, with it's obsolete, backwards azz, useless, yesterdays, hybrid technology. :) Just missing the AWD and space of the X, but with snows it will probably make it.

So as an edge case, I can't control where they put chargers or when, but I COULD make it if I had more real range, so I disagree with Elon, he is wrong for us TODAY. (2 years from now, who knows where chargers will be.)

If we expect us SUV and truck loving peeps give up the convenience of gas and save the word from CO2, we HAVE to have more real range or the charging infrastruction EVERYWHERE before can stop using ICE cars and move on to the future. Right now, it's chicken and egg. Not enough of us up here with electrics, but no one else I know will buy one because they can't do 207 miles in the winter! Hence my user Name: FirstInTown. and so far, the OnlyInTown. And I am An EV advocate, with the Volt, 8kw of home Solar and the X, I talk up how great it is. Yet looking at the winter, I'm afraid of what is coming. I know what happens to the Volt's range at 0 deg.
 
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PDX-Y

Member
May 24, 2021
231
274
Portland, OR
I'm seriously afraid it won't be enough in the winter to go 207 miles to our cabin in the U. P. of Michigan.
I'm not understanding this. There are v3 superchargers in Marquette and Escanaba, and presumably you have power at that cabin and can charge at the destination. In fact it seems pretty clear that there is literally nowhere in the upper peninsula that is 207 miles from a charger. Michigan just... isn't that big. The whole peninsula is about 200 miles long.

Is it really such a hardship to expect you to stop once for a ~10 minute charge over a 3 hour trip?
 
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FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
201
265
Northern Wi
1. Cabin to Marquette SC = 100% --> 38%. Charge for 1 hr 2 min according to ABRP to 100%. (Is this charge time right? don't know but 10min seems WAY to short with charge taper curve as get to 100%. 10 minutes is nothing, 2 hours is not going to pass the WAF factor. )

2. Marquette to home in Northern Wis is still 208 miles (1 worse than straight from cabin) 100% ---> -2%

A better routeplanner says : NOT DRIVEABLE in the winter conditions.

Mackinac Bridge to Iron River MI is 308 miles, so UP is 50% bigger than the 200 mile stated. With Marquette, that East to West trip is now doable as it is 160 miles from The Bridge.
 
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PDX-Y

Member
May 24, 2021
231
274
Portland, OR
Cabin to Marquette SC = 100% --> 38%. Charge for 1 hr 2 min according to ABRP to 100%.

Marquette to home in Northern Wis is still 208 miles (1 worse than straight from cabin) 100% ---> -2%

A better routeplanner says : NOT DRIVEABLE.
I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding you. You don't have to charge at Marquette, that was just an example in the center of the peninsula. You have options in Wausau, Eau Claire, Green Bay, Duluth. None of those are remotely 208 miles away.

I mean, look, northern WI isn't the best served area of the country but it's hardly a charging desert. Every inch of that area looks, to me, reachable in a round trip from a supercharger, c.f.: Find Us | Tesla

I mean, tough love: this isn't the mountain west. You've got lots of charging available. If you don't like stopping at them or driving a longer route to reach them, then I guess that's just the way it is, but "range" isn't what's limiting you here as I see it.
 

FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
201
265
Northern Wi
Range and chargers the whole problem. Start in the UP, up past Houghton, go to Northern Wi,
Duluth, Wausau, Eau Claire are out of range. Marquette is reachable, but have to go out of way to the east to get there, such that is it 1 mile FATHER than driving directly home, so total waste of time. (Cabin-> home = 207 miles. Marquette-> home is 208 miles acording to Google.)

No solution to get home. (Tesla routing doesn't take weather into account. I can get to the cabin right now with 30% remaining. We are talking real range in the winter.)

See attached file. These are not the exact locations of the house and cabin, as don't need to share that, but close enough to get point across. I circled the Super Charger locations. ZERO on the way.
 

Attachments

  • UP Winter ABRP.jpg
    UP Winter ABRP.jpg
    178.7 KB · Views: 30
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msm859

Member
Oct 23, 2019
432
768
California
When the Plaid+ S was canceled, one reason Elon gave was anything over 400 miles doesn't matter. Elon said, “What we are seeing is that once you have a range above 400 miles, more range doesn’t really matter," he said. "There are essentially zero trips above 400 miles where the driver doesn’t need to stop for restroom, food, coffee, etc. anyway.”

Ok, BUT... Those are EPA, perfect condition, summer miles. With our late 2020 H battery X, LR++ and the 2nd longest distance offered by ANY EV (371 EPA miles), I'm seriously afraid it won't be enough in the winter to go 207 miles to our cabin in the U. P. of Michigan. Did a VERY realistic January trip into ABetterRoutePlanner, which seems to be pretty close to what we do in the summer, says 0 deg F, 100% speed limit (no speeding), a little snow and get 100---> -2% battery, so my 371mile almost longest range car, can't do 207 miles! (Sure they just added a Super Charger in Marquete, but so far out of the way, charge from 40-->100 there and STILL don't make it, so not a choice).

What we need is more SuperChargers in these remote areas, like western U.P. or Northern Wis. Then 400 miles would be ok, but we are not there today.

So solutions: 1. Give me 400 miles at 75 mph in the winter, THEN I agree with Elon.
2. Hope the public J1772 Charger in Houghton is available and stop there for an hour to make up energy getting there. Home then at 8%, so doable.
3. OR I can Charge at 11 KWh at a winery destination charger 30 miles out of the way for 2 hours to make up the out-of-the-way travel plus needed range.
4. OR Slow charge at 11KWh at a nice person's house along the way, using PlugShare, probably 1.5 hours adder and are they home on that day?
Note: This total trip is 4 hours, 2 hours charging adds 50% more time.
5. Or keep our gas burning, Environment ruining Caddy SRX SUV for 4 trips a year (what a waste). But guaranteed to make it in that one.
6. Or Don't go on trip. Not the 'future of transportation" I was looking for when bought full electric long range X.
7. OR, most likely solution, use our 2019 Chevy Volt, with it's obsolete, backwards azz, useless, yesterdays, hybrid technology. :) Just missing the AWD and space of the X, but with snows it will probably make it.

So as an edge case, I can't control where they put chargers or when, but I COULD make it if I had more real range, so I disagree with Elon, he is wrong for us TODAY. (2 years from now, who knows where chargers will be.)

If we expect us SUV and truck loving peeps give up the convenience of gas and save the word from CO2, we HAVE to have more real range or the charging infrastruction EVERYWHERE before can stop using ICE cars and move on to the future. Right now, it's chicken and egg. Not enough of us up here with electrics, but no one else I know will buy one because they can't do 207 miles in the winter! Hence my user Name: FirstInTown. and so far, the OnlyInTown. And I am An EV advocate, with the Volt, 8kw of home Solar and the X, I talk up how great it is. Yet looking at the winter, I'm afraid of what is coming. I know what happens to the Volt's range at 0 deg.
Agreed. I have a 2020 Model X that has a "stated" range of @331 miles. If that was real it would be fine. But it is NOT real - even without cold weather. 400 "real" mile range would be awesome - and enough. But until it can get there with real world driving - range is king! I could not see myself being enticed to upgrade until the "advertised" rate is at least 420+ miles on a new X.
 

PDX-Y

Member
May 24, 2021
231
274
Portland, OR
See attached file. These are not the exact locations of the house and cabin, as don't need to share that, but close enough to get point across. I circled the Super Charger locations. ZERO on the way.

OK, you just happen to have an itinerary that is absolutely pessimal for the existing supercharger sites. Seriously, I don't think there's a more charging-impacted route anywhere in the entire midwest. In fact, if I were to show up here as a troll taunting people about an artificially manufactured, unrealistic trip... I don't think I could have done as well as the one you just posted.

I think a Tesla may have simply been a poor choice, honestly. But it's not the range of the car, it's the locations of the chargers.

That said: I still think you're making way too much of this. It's simply not true that there is "no solution to get home". Take an 45 minutes or whatever and drive out of your way to hit a charger. It's not like it's the end of the world.
 

FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
201
265
Northern Wi
OK, you just happen to have an itinerary that is absolutely pessimal for the existing supercharger sites. Seriously, I don't think there's a more charging-impacted route anywhere in the entire midwest. In fact, if I were to show up here as a troll taunting people about an artificially manufactured, unrealistic trip... I don't think I could have done as well as the one you just posted.
The actual destinations are within 10 miles of where I live and cabin location, so NO trolling, and I compensated by picking places so the total distance 3 miles less than the real trip. SORRY, THIS IS MY REALITY. THIS IS WHERE WE LIVE.

Lets say I was in Duluth or Ashland or Hayward, or ANY north/central Wisconsin locations and go to our cabin in The U.P. None of them will make it either.

Here is the thing. Electric is the future right? Tesla is the best, right? X LR++ is almost the longest, right? (S LR+ is better). Elon says 400 miles is all we need. I disagree, as I see the world from my location and in the winter, Tesla 371miles isn't even CLOSE to enough as it is barely makes 200 miles. If in 5-8 years we need to be electric, we need more charging stations here OR more range. I can't control where they put stations and it looks no one cares about us because of the population density. So my only solution is a true 400 mile range at speed and in the cold.

Heck a TRUE 75 mph, cold weather 300 miles I would agree with Elon. But we ain't there.
 

PDX-Y

Member
May 24, 2021
231
274
Portland, OR
SORRY, THIS IS MY REALITY. THIS IS WHERE WE LIVE.
YES, BUT ALMOST NO PEOPLE LIVE THERE.[1]

Again, you don't have a perfectly reasonable itinerary that demands a longer range car. In effect, you lost the supercharger lottery and the places Elon decided to drop the magic charging dust are all in the opposite directions of where you want to go. This is the EV equivalent of having to walk up hill to school both ways.

Your case, basically, is an outrageously uncommon outlier. Demanding higher range for outliers isn't really good product planning.

[1] To be clear: where "there" means your particular destination arrangement and not just the upper midwest, which on the whole is very well served by superchargers.
 

nwdiver

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2013
8,475
11,688
United States
What we need is more SuperChargers in these remote areas, like western U.P. or Northern Wis. Then 400 miles would be ok, but we are not there today.

So...... then....... would it not make more sense to focus on more superchargers? Seems like the need for EPA range >400 miles is more a symptom of a problem. Shouldn't we treat the problem instead of the symptom?
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,850
40,429
Oregon
Did a VERY realistic January trip into ABetterRoutePlanner, which seems to be pretty close to what we do in the summer, says 0 deg F, 100% speed limit (no speeding), a little snow and get 100---> -2% battery, so my 371mile almost longest range car, can't do 207 miles!
But you aren't taking into account that the new Model S&X now have the heat pump system and should have significantly less range loss in cold weather.
 

FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
201
265
Northern Wi
YES, BUT ALMOST NO PEOPLE LIVE THERE.[1]

Again, you don't have a perfectly reasonable itinerary that demands a longer range car. In effect, you lost the supercharger lottery and the places Elon decided to drop the magic charging dust are all in the opposite directions of where you want to go. This is the EV equivalent of having to walk up hill to school both ways.
Ok, with this attitude, we may as well forget moving from SUV and Trucks as that is what sells here and meets the consumer demand. Do you think these guys are going to buy F150 Lightings and get 207 real miles in the cold and be happy? So the few of us can continue to spew CO2 and pollution because we lost because of our location. We are still a state of 3.5 million people, and sure the north is not served, but HOW can this be the future if we get left behind?


So...... then....... would it not make more sense to focus on more superchargers? Seems like the need for EPA range >400 miles is more a symptom of a problem. Shouldn't we treat the problem instead of the symptom?
Yes! agree, but I can't control When and Where any chargers are built other than at my home and cabin. So what to do while we wait? Drive ICE SUVs? If had a true 400 miles like Elon implies he has (but doesn't), wouldn't be a problem. But it is.

But you aren't taking into account that the new Model S&X now have the heat pump system and should have significantly less range loss in cold weather.
True, and we have had a 2021 on reserve since Jan 3rd and one reason was hoping for a heat Pump and it got one. Where is my new X? Vapor ware so far. And the range dropped from 371 to est 360, so battery got smaller? And when 0 deg outside, a heat pump isn't much better than resistive heat, as heat pump really helps in the 20 to 40 deg range. The OctoValve and motor heat being used should help, so will wait and see cold range. Just wish the new didn't have that yoke and lack of turn signals should make turning on the signal with gloves a real joy. But those are separate things that Tesla chose to do.
 
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FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
201
265
Northern Wi
Here is a thing, redo the EPA rating to be reflect reality. There is only 1 number.(mine is 371 miles) And its 55% is city and 45% highway. It's Cheat right there, as city is not important for this because EVs kick but there. Also, highway driving is way faster than the test. Give us highway 75 MPH interstate, and AC is used. And need a winter cycle that shows the range loss. Like zero deg Cold-Cranking Amps on a battery. Give us Highway 0 deg temp range. These numbers would be nowhere near 400, so is a 200 mile winter car enough?

I say nope as you need to be able to go anywhere if it is your only car. And there are places, as remote and unlikable as my route is to the cabin it's 207 miles that can't be reasonably driven.

We need more chargers, but again I can't control where they put them, so I need range so I can decide how to use it as I can control that.

Maybe the infra-structure bill will solve this and a single DCFC gets put along the way. Then my concerns go away. But I have no idea if that will happen next year or 2023 or 2024 or 2025.
 

PDX-Y

Member
May 24, 2021
231
274
Portland, OR
Ok, with this attitude, we may as well forget moving from SUV and Trucks as that is what sells here and meets the consumer demand.
No, not "here", only in your extraordinarily weird housing arrangement that seems suspiciously designed to evade every possible inter-charger route. Anyone living in any of the population centers on the peninsula, or on any of the major arteries, just doesn't have your problem.

Look, I'm not saying your problem isn't real. I'm saying it's extremely rare and a very bad basis on which to judge what kind of range median (or hell, even 95th percentile) consumers actually need.
 

_jmk

Member
Sep 4, 2017
344
245
Finland
I live in Finland and we have our share of long and cold winters. My drive to our countryside house is 460km (290 miles) and the 2020 ’371 epa mile’ X does it without stopping during the summer. In mid winter I need 10-20 minute (150kW stall) charge on the way. For me the winter effectively changes nothing, i’ll stop on the way anyway.
 
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