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Disagree with Elon, 400 EPA miles is NOT enough

_jmk

Member
Sep 4, 2017
344
245
Finland
Good to know the 2-3 kW on normal drive for cold heat. I have a heat pump as a part of my home's complex heating system (using a Heat pump where it can hit -30 or -40 deg is not a common heating situation and has to be part of a gas back up and electric assist unit that works with Heat Pump. ) Heat pump works well, saves money over the year but below 0 deg F, the HP is at a COP (cooefficient of performance rating) of 1, so no gain over straight resistive heat. At 30 deg f, the COP is closer to 3 (300%) and warmer the air, the higher COP, as high as 4 to 5 at 60 deg F on new Heat Pumps. In a car, don't know if that high, but at 30deg, might use 1/3 the energy as resistive. BUT, at 30, not a problem with dist on old X, its under 20deg f.

The unknown for me is how the octovalve helps car overall efficiency. Sounds like it has 15 modes and can move waste heat from batt, motors and HP as needed to passengers or battery as needed. Sounds impressive and can only help over the old X. I do miss that. But don't know yet how much it will help at 0 deg F and if it would be enough for my 'impossible drive'

The Efficiency of the heat pump has a lot to do with the physical size of the device. The pump you have at your house is not quite the same as the ones you find in the cars due to the size limitations..
 

_jmk

Member
Sep 4, 2017
344
245
Finland
You'll have to define "really cold". I live in Maine so my really cold is much colder than it was in the UK, but not as cold as somebody from the Northern Plains.

I suggest watching some of Bjørn Nyland's videos winter-testing the heating with the heat pump.

In Tesla's design the heat pump doesn't just give you improved heating efficiency, it also adds the ability to move heat from the battery to the cabin.
That allows recovery of heat added for and by Supercharging that would previously have been lost as waste heat as the car cooled the battery. So it's very beneficial to longer winter trips as it makes them cheaper and faster.

Sure, but check the math Björn does. He lands with the same efficiency gains i’m quoting here. The pump is good, but below -20c just about pointless and at 0c at the peak efficiency of COP3. I’ve never had range issues at 0c, but there you get the extra 6kWh per 3h of driving.
 

PDX-Y

Member
May 24, 2021
199
238
Portland, OR
You all need to look and live in the Great Plains and other rural areas.

You need to go and look more carefully at that map that showed the route. Supercharger density in the upper peninsula just isn't that bad. This was an absolutely pessimal thing, drawn along tiny rural routes suspiciously aiming between any charger options. You can draw that kind of nonsense between gas stations too, I suspect.
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
7,035
8,651
Boise, ID
You need to go and look more carefully at that map that showed the route. Supercharger density in the upper peninsula just isn't that bad.
That's just not true. I just went and looked carefully at this route. There really are zero Superchargers close to this path.
This was an absolutely pessimal thing, drawn along tiny rural routes suspiciously aiming between any charger options.
You misspelled "sensibly", and it came out "suspiciously". This is what the route planners do on purpose when there is not charging available on the routes. It does use smaller highways with the 55 mph speed limits, because that is most efficient and can get the farthest distance. And there just isn't a main straight shot interstate or something in this area, so it's all "tiny rural routes". So no, ABetterRoutePlanner was not being "suspicious". Notice there are no waypoints along the way? That path was not "drawn" on a pessimistic path--it's what ABetterRoutePlanner picked as the best it could come up with.

I opened Plugshare to see if there was other stuff available somewhere near this, where there could be a few hours of slow charging, but it keeps reporting failure to connect to its database and won't load the charging locations, so I can't check that right now.
 
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bobby g

Member
Mar 13, 2020
367
210
The Inland Empire :)
When the Plaid+ S was canceled, one reason Elon gave was anything over 400 miles doesn't matter. Elon said, “What we are seeing is that once you have a range above 400 miles, more range doesn’t really matter," he said. "There are essentially zero trips above 400 miles where the driver doesn’t need to stop for restroom, food, coffee, etc. anyway.”

Ok, BUT... Those are EPA, perfect condition, summer miles. With our late 2020 H battery X, LR++ and the 2nd longest distance offered by ANY EV (371 EPA miles), I'm seriously afraid it won't be enough in the winter to go 207 miles to our cabin in the U. P. of Michigan. Did a VERY realistic January trip into ABetterRoutePlanner, which seems to be pretty close to what we do in the summer, says 0 deg F, 100% speed limit (no speeding), a little snow and get 100---> -2% battery, so my 371mile almost longest range car, can't do 207 miles! (Sure they just added a Super Charger in Marquete, but so far out of the way, charge from 40-->100 there and STILL don't make it, so not a choice).

What we need is more SuperChargers in these remote areas, like western U.P. or Northern Wis. Then 400 miles would be ok, but we are not there today.

So solutions: 1. Give me 400 miles at 75 mph in the winter, THEN I agree with Elon.
2. Hope the public J1772 Charger in Houghton is available and stop there for an hour to make up energy getting there. Home then at 8%, so doable.
3. OR I can Charge at 11 KWh at a winery destination charger 30 miles out of the way for 2 hours to make up the out-of-the-way travel plus needed range.
4. OR Slow charge at 11KWh at a nice person's house along the way, using PlugShare, probably 1.5 hours adder and are they home on that day?
Note: This total trip is 4 hours, 2 hours charging adds 50% more time.
5. Or keep our gas burning, Environment ruining Caddy SRX SUV for 4 trips a year (what a waste). But guaranteed to make it in that one.
6. Or Don't go on trip. Not the 'future of transportation" I was looking for when bought full electric long range X.
7. OR, most likely solution, use our 2019 Chevy Volt, with it's obsolete, backwards azz, useless, yesterdays, hybrid technology. :) Just missing the AWD and space of the X, but with snows it will probably make it.

So as an edge case, I can't control where they put chargers or when, but I COULD make it if I had more real range, so I disagree with Elon, he is wrong for us TODAY. (2 years from now, who knows where chargers will be.)

If we expect us SUV and truck loving peeps give up the convenience of gas and save the word from CO2, we HAVE to have more real range or the charging infrastruction EVERYWHERE before can stop using ICE cars and move on to the future. Right now, it's chicken and egg. Not enough of us up here with electrics, but no one else I know will buy one because they can't do 207 miles in the winter! Hence my user Name: FirstInTown. and so far, the OnlyInTown. And I am An EV advocate, with the Volt, 8kw of home Solar and the X, I talk up how great it is. Yet looking at the winter, I'm afraid of what is coming. I know what happens to the Volt's range at 0 deg.
I'm being it won't be the 66 miles today I was getting in my Volt here in socal. I traded it and an STI to get my M3 and I miss parts of both but I was able to do 82% electric over the life of my volt. Still the best plug in hybrid imho
 

FirstInTown

Member
Sep 22, 2020
201
265
Northern Wi
You need to go and look more carefully at that map that showed the route. Supercharger density in the upper peninsula just isn't that bad. This was an absolutely pessimal thing, drawn along tiny rural routes suspiciously aiming between any charger options. You can draw that kind of nonsense between gas stations too, I suspect.
Again, the route is NOT suspiciously draw to avoid Superchargers. We have been driving route LONG before Tesla was even a thing, since 1990 when we moved to the area and went to visit my parents who owned the cabin at the time. So it's bad, sure. But is is also the route ABRP uses, as it is the most logical way to get from here to there.

Again, a TRUE 400 miles would be enough, but this is EPA RATING miles. Add cold and snow and a headwind, and the 'EPA 400 miles' becomes a dream no one hits and for my case, it doesn't cut it. I'm afraid I can't do 215 miles!
 
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Prairie

Model x on order for January 2022
Apr 19, 2021
30
12
Nebraska
OP here, Strider has some good points I agree with. From a resource and weight perspective, smaller is better for everyone. Strongly agree. But, I AM an edge case and DO have a charger problem. When does that get fixed? 1-year? 5 years? Since Tesla is in charge of Super chargers and where they site them, and I am seemingly close to alone as an owner in this area, we have the classic chicken-and-egg delemia.

I watch the new charger maps from Tesla, EA and the like in this area. Other than some RedE chargers (looks like level 2) there doesn't seem to be anything planned in this area. The elusive infrastructure plan? Maybe. In what time frame?

Part of the reason we got the 'least efficient model' is the X has WOW factor up here. Most have never seen one and the doors still have that WOW, WHAT IS THAT to get conversions about EVs started. I love being an EV advocate, as also have a Volt.

My problem is I SOOOOO want EVs to replace ICE everywhere. But those truck lovers (and SUVs) around me (the missing 20% from your 80% covered) are not going to switch from the gas loving trucks until the EV can go EVERYWHERE the truck can. Just stubborn that way. So give us the option (500 mile CT) of more than 400 miles to get us by now, as we need it. (It's not really 500 miles anyway in real life up here. Hopeing for real 300.) Make it an option, so people covered by charging don't have to pay or carry the battery around. Yes, this is a band aide until charging is here, but don't know when and don't want to wait and burn more gas in the mean time.

I need chargers on the way and I've gone so far as contact a casino on the way about adding a Destination Charger. Not a gambler, but could eat a meal while charge (at level 2, Boo).
Points: Rural people drive SUVs (some quite large and heavy) and trucks for practical reasons. The X is the only EV that comes close in storage capacity to my minivan. I dislike the weight limits on the trunk storage capacity but I’ll work with it. There are very few sedans. If we had enough super chargers, we would not be so desperate for range, especially given cold, heat, wind reduction on range. I am not sitting for 4 hrs in a town of 100 for sufficient charge to make it to the next slow charger. However, altering a normal ICE route 125 miles ( 2 hr drive) to get to supercharger and avoid 4 hour delay on a normal 5 hr trip is not realistic. Yes, I am an early to mid adopter of EV auto but the future is now and we must reduce emissions drastically. solution: more, lots more, super chargers of any brand in rural areas and continuous increase in range.
 
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henderrj

Active Member
Jun 16, 2014
1,032
881
Graham, WA, United States
Points: Rural people drive SUVs (some quite large and heavy) and trucks for practical reasons. The X is the only EV that comes close in storage capacity to my minivan. I dislike the weight limits on the trunk storage capacity but I’ll work with it. There are very few sedans. If we had enough super chargers, we would not be so desperate for range, especially given cold, heat, wind reduction on range. I am not sitting for 4 hrs in a town of 100 for sufficient charge to make it to the next slow charger. However, altering a normal ICE route 125 miles ( 2 hr drive) to get to supercharger and avoid 4 hour delay on a normal 5 hr trip is not realistic. Yes, I am an early to mid adopter of EV auto but the future is now and we must reduce emissions drastically. solution: more, lots more, super chargers of any brand in rural areas and continuous increase in range.

It is my understanding that there are roughly 25,000 superchargers installed worldwide now. The new China factory can make 10,000 per year. That seems to indicate a pretty rapid advance is coming. Since I'm sure the fremont, or is it in arizona, factory for superchargers will keep churning them out as they always have. Add to that the spend and tax philosophy of our current administration and I think we'll get a lot of money thrown at chargers, and Tesla looks like they'll get a big chunk. So, we should see all of the superchargers we want within 5 years, is my guess.
 
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