"Lane Keep Assist" - Telsa vs. Subaru Eyesight (My experience)

[Pilot1226]

This morning, driving to work, I had an opportunity to look a little more in-depth at the Subaru system down to strokes. In this thread, people have criticized the double tap of the stalk in order to engage autopilot when available. Here are some things I noticed, or tried to notice, at 6 AM today..

Not sure if this works, but here's a picture of my wheel:

First, Subaru requires me to push the Cruise Control button on the wheel, this is the top right button on the wheel controls. Next, I have to manually flip the toggle switch on the right down to "SET" it and it will hold the current speed. I can press up or down on this toggle in order to increase or reduce my maximum set speed in 5 mph increments. If I push and hold it up or down, it will increase or reduce by 1 mph increments after a few seconds.

When I activate Cruise Control, my top infotainment changes to a 3D view of my car with a green beam (graphical depiction of EyeSight) and will show a car in front of me based on 3 or 4 pre-set distances away to show it's acquired the vehicle. This is in the very top right of the screen that shares information with the clock (shows 11:40) and temperature controls (says LO). This is mildly annoying, because I can only pull this screen up once the Cruise Control settings are enabled, and they come on automatically. So, if I'm using this top infotainment screen to show Media/Radio information (song, artist, etc.), or car functions (I have mine set to Oil Temp, Coolant Temp, and Acceleration Input Percentage), I have to then push the info button, which is on the left side of the wheel on the inner button (next to SOURCE under the left up/down toggle).

The criticism here is that there's a ton of buttons all over. It's cluttered. I also disabled the Auto Start Stop technology on the car because in my opinion it is too coarse and is a little jerky. This button is on the lower left on the cluster of "8" buttons that is above the fuse box - not on the wheel. Look under the left vent and you see the squares. The Auto Start Stop is the A with the circle around it.

Back to cruise control, on the right side of the wheel, the following distance is set by the top left and bottom left buttons on the right side to increase/decrease distance. The bottom right is lane keep assist, which is decent enough for highway functions but annoying in city.

This is also separate from Lane Departure Warning which is what applies the beep. LDW seems to be overly protective (I guess it makes sense to have 20 false alerts to save you from 1 actual alert that might end up in a crash), and again only beeps and displays a graphic alert between the speedometer and tachometer. It can be disabled using the button near the Sunroof control without affecting Lane Keep Assist functionality BUT will display a bright orange LED to show it's disabled on the dash instrument cluster.

Also, using remote start, I noticed that the car will beep the horn briefly before starting and after the start is successful. If for some reason it can't remote start (a door was left open or the hood was opened, etc.) it will beep 3 times rapidly. This is probably annoying to my neighbors when I'm leaving at 5, 5:30, 6 AM depending on my shift.

Just some little things I noticed. Aside from that, I have only had one false alert from the EyeSight system that could have caused a collision if someone was behind me too closely. I've also have two or three occasions in the last 16 months that I might have caused a collision because of various factors (not distracted driving but was following too closely in one scenario, another the person had no brake lights, another I didn't see the car in my blind spot)

Thanks again for the thread, it was informative and helpful. At the end of the day, for now, we have to realize that these are still driver assist features and not driver replacement features. For now.

 

[jebinc]

Hey guys, I stumbled on @jebinc 's thread here after posting my own about comparing a new Subaru Outback against the new Tesla Model Y. I agree with generally all of the information here. Here's a little background on me:

I was a Subaru Ambassador for about 3 years, helping to promote the brand and participate in community events that featured environmental or caring aspects (blanket drives for hospitals, etc.). My last 3 cars have been Subarus, consisting of a 2009 Legacy Limited, 2011 Outback Limited, and a 2019 Forester Premium. I've driven the 6 cylinder boxer, which is now discontinued, the previous generation "EJ" 4 cylinder, the modern FB 4 cylinder, and the FA turbo 4 cylinder engines. I've driven all of the models including the Crosstrek Hybrid PHEV, Subaru Ascent, and Outback XT from the last year.

I've also driven the Model 3 as well in March.

I wanted to clarify the comments about the driver assist features found in both and the differences between the two. Again, I think everyone's pretty "correct" with this thread.

First, the Subaru system. My 2019 Forester has the previous generation of EyeSight compared to the modern 2020 version found in the Outback & Legacy with the 2020 redesign. The Forester was redesigned in the 2019 model year, and it's expected to get a minor refresh in model year 2021, and a full refresh due in 2023. Subaru seems to do this on purpose to beta test a new feature before it goes out to the entire fleet.

So, my 2019 has Lane Keep Assist which is PASSIVE, this is the part I wanted to clarify. LKA will ping pong you back and forth to keep you inside of your lane. It only works above ~40 mph. The new 2020's have Lane Centering which is ACTIVE and can work from a stop. This is most comparable to AutoSteer.

Lane Centering DOES work well but seems to let go a lot more than AutoSteer has in my experience. It's much more finicky.

For me, if I want Lane Centering, I have to now either lease a new 2020+ Forester, or I have to buy a new one. This could potentially cost me thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. For reference, my car will depreciate around $12,000 from its original $30,500 sticker by the time my lease is up, expecting around 36,000 miles after 3 years. Again, as it is a lease I'm not really locked into the losses but I could have easily decided to buy or finance.

The big thing that this thread hits is the fact that the Tesla has the neural net - so it gets smarter as time goes on and it encounters new situations. It's smarter than the Subaru will ever be, since the Subaru can't be "upgraded" unless I buy a new model.

Also, the OP pointed out they wanted the XT trim. So, you're looking around 16-20 mpg city if you're lucky. With my non-turbo Forester, I'm getting around 20 mpg city, and around 30 highway; generally my tanks are combined around 23-24 mpg. But, the Tesla would get closer to 120 eMPG here.

Basically what I figured is that it ends up being something like $1500 per year in gas difference. The Outback XT has an MSRP as I configured around $41,500 - which I figure I could negotiate down to around $40,000. After factoring in sales tax from the state, we're looking at $42,600. In my state (NJ), there's no sales tax on an EV.

The Tesla, thanks to a state rebate/incentive, would cost about $49,000 after the rebate including the destination fee. Over a potential 10-year ownership, you'll save $15,000 in gasoline. That's not even counting the twice-a-year $90 oil changes, differential fluid changes, spark plug changes, coolant changes, amongst other routine maintenance items. And also not factoring in anything about ICE-related repairs.

You're also helping the environment, and driving a safer vehicle overall.

As someone that was deeply passionate about promoting the Subaru brand, I am crushed that they refuse to enter the EV market. The Crosstrek is too small for what I'm looking for - with kids and cargo and the need to carry both - but the Model Y offers a very good proposition.

I truly can't imagine buying anything other than a Model Y once I'm able to get out of this lease.

Good luck!

Thanks for the informative post! Just a couple of clarifications from my perspective.

1. Outback's are selling under invoice and always have. With a loyalty coupon and VIP, I got my 2020 for 15% under invoice (not MSRP). So, actual acquisition cost is much lower.

2. Totally agree with the Tesla neural network comments. The only think I will say is that the 2020 version of the Subaru is “supposed to be” upgradable without having to buy or lease a new car, as has been the case in the past. Having said that, I have not seen any updates since I got mine last October.

3. Yes, the XT mileage blows. Worse than my 3.6R renditions.

4. My 2020 XT will be traded when my Cybertruck order is filled late in 2021 (I hope). Ordered on launch day last November.

Edit: And lest us not forget that all 2020 Subaru's have "Stop-Start" that can not be disabled. Let me tell you, that's a real PITA!

 

[rincewind]

About 3 weeks ago I was slowing to a stop behind the car in front (which was stationary at traffic lights), when my M3P decided to brake for me. It was full on braking, had myself and my daughter hanging from the seat belt straps. We both agreed that there was no need for it to do that - I was decelerating at a good rate in order to halt some way from the car in front. Had there been a car behind me it's very likely that it would have rear ended me. I have no idea what the car 'saw' that I didn't, but it still concerns me now that it did that.

 

[jebinc]

About 3 weeks ago I was slowing to a stop behind the car in front (which was stationary at traffic lights), when my M3P decided to brake for me. It was full on braking, had myself and my daughter hanging from the seat belt straps. We both agreed that there was no need for it to do that - I was decelerating at a good rate in order to halt some way from the car in front. Had there been a car behind me it's very likely that it would have rear ended me. I have no idea what the car 'saw' that I didn't, but it still concerns me now that it did that.

Yep, even the Tesla AP is no panacea.

 

[Pilot1226]

1. Outback's are selling... loyalty coupon and VIP, I got my 2020 for 15% under invoice (not MSRP)

2. Having said that, I have not seen any updates since I got mine last October.

3. Yes, the XT mileage blows. Worse than my 3.6R renditions.

Edit: And lest us not forget that all 2020 Subaru's have "Stop-Start" that can not be disabled. Let me tell you, that's a real PITA!

Thanks for your reply.

I don’t know that you can get this for 15% below invoice. The VIP program has no negotiations and the prices are set at either invoice pricing or 2% under invoice depending on the VIP partner. You also can’t combine coupons aside from the Loyalty Coupon and Maintenance Plan coupons. But I don’t think these would add up to be 15% under invoice. Maybe MSRP? I’m pretty sure I was somewhere around 10% under MSRP when I did my lease through an invoice VIP partner.

I know from first hand experience that you can negotiate better if you decide not to use the VIP plan, but it’s kind of like Ford dealing with the “X-Plan” - once you mention it they are required to stop negotiating. Time is money and for me I wanted to get in and out as quick as I can, so it was worth it to me.

I can’t imagine Eyesight getting better in terms of new functions now but over time it could get smarter or have better hardware (cameras) as time goes on. I’d personally like to see a HUD on the window with my speed.

Yeah, I’ve been hearing on forums that the 2.4T is getting worse mileage than the 3.6R that it’s replacing. Crazy. I guess it was better for their fuel economy test for the EPA.

AutoStartStop can be turned off on your 2020 but not permanently. You have to to go through your infotainment into car or driver settings and find it. It resets back to “on” when you turn off the car.

Maybe you can bribe a Subaru technician with $100 to change the default behavior to “Off” using the special Subaru Select Tool they have

About 3 weeks ago I was slowing to a stop behind the car in front (which was stationary at traffic lights), when my M3P decided to brake for me. It was full on braking, had myself and my daughter hanging from the seat belt straps. We both agreed that there was no need for it to do that - I was decelerating at a good rate in order to halt some way from the car in front. Had there been a car behind me it's very likely that it would have rear ended me. I have no idea what the car 'saw' that I didn't, but it still concerns me now that it did that.

That’s terrifying. This is the one thing that bothers me, the automatic braking. Were you on autopilot or just approaching a light?

 

[rincewind]

That’s terrifying. This is the one thing that bothers me, the automatic braking. Were you on autopilot or just approaching a light?

No autopilot, just driving the car. I must admit it was/is a concern. Just imagine the insurance form: 'It wasn't me, it was the car'. Insurance company: 'Yeah, of course, now tell us the real story.'

 

[Knightshade]

No autopilot, just driving the car. I must admit it was/is a concern. Just imagine the insurance form: 'It wasn't me, it was the car'. Insurance company: 'Yeah, of course, now tell us the real story.'

That's AEB- which is on most cars now (and required on em as of 2022)- there are settings for how aggressive it is on the car though.

 

[jebinc]

Thanks for your reply.

I don’t know that you can get this for 15% below invoice. The VIP program has no negotiations and the prices are set at either invoice pricing or 2% under invoice depending on the VIP partner. You also can’t combine coupons aside from the Loyalty Coupon and Maintenance Plan coupons. But I don’t think these would add up to be 15% under invoice. Maybe MSRP? I’m pretty sure I was somewhere around 10% under MSRP when I did my lease through an invoice VIP partner.

I know from first hand experience that you can negotiate better if you decide not to use the VIP plan, but it’s kind of like Ford dealing with the “X-Plan” - once you mention it they are required to stop negotiating. Time is money and for me I wanted to get in and out as quick as I can, so it was worth it to me.

Facts, re purchase price of my 2020 Subaru Outback XT

1. Bought over eight Subaru's from same GM since 2016... Some for me, and others for family members.

2. Never a negotiation, GM just tells me what the discount from INVOICE is based on his current inventory, "allocation needs" and incoming vehicles at that time. Discounts from INVOICE have ranged from $1000 to $4500 below, without any loyalty coupons. This is the starting point. The 2020 was factory ordered August 2019 and delivered early October - one of the first 2020's on the lot. My price was $1000 below INVOICE. I also ordered a similar 2020 for my parents at the same time ($1000 under) and a leftover 2019 Outback for another family member - that one was $4500 under INVOICE.

3. All factory or port options are sold to me at INVOICE price.

4. My company employee's discount program gets me a Subaru VIP credit is $400 additional discount from #1 above, at this dealership

5. For the 2020, I also had $1500 in Loyalty coupons. There was an issue with our 2018 not handled well and SoA CS issued a one time additional $1000 credit memo.

6. I ordered the hitch and hitch ball as part of the factory order, at INVOICE. Car was delivered without it. Dealership price was a lot more and included installation charges as well (PARTS and SERVICE are profit center from SALES). I reached out to SoA CS, at the GM's suggestion, and SoA also "comped" the cost of the hitch, hitch ball, and dealer installation for my troubles. This was another ~$1000 benefit I didn't include in my ~15% under invoice comment earlier, but I felt I should add it to this reply.

Looking forward to getting my CyberTruck to replace this 2020 Outback! Oh, and another point about Tesla - none of this is needed (above), as everyone pays the same price at any one given point in time!

 

[rincewind]

That's AEB- which is on most cars now (and required on em as of 2022)- there are settings for how aggressive it is on the car though.

Yes, true. I have it set at the least agressive already.

 

[rincewind]

I think the setting is only for how early it warns i.e. beeps at you. The AEB switch stays on even when the warning is set to off.

 

[mojoe]

Yes, true. I have it set at the least agressive already.

I had posted something involving what I believed to be AEB that happened a dsy ago. What made my situation a little weirder was I was actively hitting the accelerator when the brakes were suddenly depressed as I was trying to maneuver around a super slow turner. At first the jolt made me think I was hit but luckily no one was behind me.

 

[rincewind]

I had posted something involving what I believed to be AEB that happened a dsy ago. What made my situation a little weirder was I was actively hitting the accelerator when the brakes were suddenly depressed as I was trying to maneuver around a super slow turner. At first the jolt made me think I was hit but luckily no one was behind me.

It's far from perfect, my partners Golf is better is this respect, and also the TACC is better.