"Lane Keep Assist" - Telsa vs. Subaru Eyesight (My experience)

[jebinc]

It's not unusual for a discussion topic to drift. If you don't want someone to comment on what you have posted, then don't post it! To refresh, you said:

How safe do you feel? ​

Yes, I know I asked that question (re AP) based on a bad experience I had with it (AP); you can find posted earlier in this thread (Post #25). It was a genuine question to that poster (i.e., "Do you feel safe?"), given my one bad experience (almost a head on collision had I not acted quickly - as I was "...monitoring it" (AP) . Your first reply (#114) to that "Do you feel safe?" post was a false (for me) and taken as a condescending statement - "I thought everyone knew that Tesla doesn't offer the kind of FSD where you don't need to continually monitor it."

Rather than returning the condescending attitude, and slinging false assumptions back to you, I responded (#115) to you at length with detailed, thoughtful and factual information. Then, you decided to "amp up" the false assumptions/accusations and condescending attitude in post #116 (and beyond) - trolling behavior, IMHO. So, I decided to check your profile... to see just how many "Disagree" tags you have accumulated, and guess what I found??? "This member limits who may view their full profile." That says it all. I also noticed, twice, that you didn't answer my question re your Subaru ownership or your first hand driving experience with Subaru Eyesight... So, we are done here. Have a great day!

To all others who have experience with both non AP/FSD driver's aid system functionality, your input/experience would still be appreciated!

 

[StealthP3D]

Yes, I know I asked that question (re AP) based on a bad experience I had with it (AP); you can find posted earlier in this thread (Post #25). It was a genuine question to that poster (i.e., "Do you feel safe?"), given my one bad experience (almost a head on collision had I not acted quickly - as I was "...monitoring it" (AP) . Your first reply (#114) to that "Do you feel safe?" post was a false (for me) and taken as a condescending statement - "I thought everyone knew that Tesla doesn't offer the kind of FSD where you don't need to continually monitor it."

Rather than returning the condescending attitude, and slinging false assumptions back to you, I responded (#115) to you at length with detailed, thoughtful and factual information. Then, you decided to "amp up" the false assumptions/accusations and condescending attitude in post #116 (and beyond) - trolling behavior, IMHO. So, I decided to check your profile... to see just how many "Disagree" tags you have accumulated, and guess what I found??? "This member limits who may view their full profile." That says it all. I also noticed, twice, that you didn't answer my question re your Subaru ownership or your first hand driving experience with Subaru Eyesight... So, we are done here. Have a great day!

To all others who have experience with both non AP/FSD driver's aid system functionality, your input/experience would still be appreciated!

It sounds like you just want to argue and disrupt the forum. Attacking anyone who disagrees with you and trying to put them "in their place" appears to be your normal modus operandi.

Straw man arguments. Asking what people think of AP and FSD features and then berating them for discussing it because it wasn't the topic of your first post.

 

[jebinc]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I ordered a 2020 Outback XT Limited to replace our 2018 - as we will need a vehicle of this type in the stable for our lifestyle needs (in addition to the Model 3). The 2020 Outback is a redesign and won't hit dealer lots until September - ours is slated for an October delivery (Note - My Model 3 took a total of eight days from factory order to delivery).

Reviews of the new 2020 Outback started coming out two weeks ago, when Subaru released a bunch of cars to reviewers, etc. I find the comments about the new 2020 Eyesight system intriguing, especially in non FSD/AP areas, as they seem to be further ahead than those my current Model 3 offers. I've listed a few below that came from one reviewer's article. I sure hope my Model 3 will get updates in the next six months so that it at least matches the new Subaru basic driver's safety aids that I believe "most" Telsa owners would want. I say, "most" as there are some "all or nothing Zealots" and fanbois out there that would vehemently disagree, as you can see from some that posted in this thread earlier. And for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not looking to compare Tesla AP/FSD to Subaru Eyesight - just "basic driver safety aids" to "basic driver safety aids".

• DriverFocus which uses a dedicated infrared camera aimed at the driver to identify signs of driver fatigue (closed eyes) and distraction (eyes off the road too long). Such detected perils trigger visual and audio signals.
• Stop-go Advanced Adaptive Cruise Control with Lane Centering that automatically slows and accelerates the vehicle, depending on the speed of the vehicle ahead. The system works precisely, keeping a bead on the vehicle ahead, even on twisty roads here during a media preview.
• An all-new high-resolution infotainment screen that is tablet-style and a substantial 11.6 ins. (295 mm). It works with Subaru’s Starlink multimedia system. (BTW, in the past, Outback cockpit controls were all over the place. Now they’ve been consolidated and run on two processors, rather than one, to speed things up.)
• Front View Monitor that captures images in the driver’s blind spots and displays a 180-degree view. It’s a first for the Outback.

 

[MP3Mike]

You say this:

And for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not looking to compare Tesla AP/FSD to Subaru Eyesight - just "basic driver safety aids" to "basic driver safety aids".

But one of the things you included sounds a lot like AP:

Stop-go Advanced Adaptive Cruise Control with Lane Centering that automatically slows and accelerates the vehicle, depending on the speed of the vehicle ahead. The system works precisely, keeping a bead on the vehicle ahead, even on twisty roads here during a media preview.

Of course in the Outback it sounds like it is limited to when you are following a vehicle. If that car drives off a cliff, so do you.

 

[jebinc]

You say this:

But one of the things you included sounds a lot like AP:

Of course in the Outback it sounds like it is limited to when you are following a vehicle. If that car drives off a cliff, so do you.

It will be interesting to see what the 2020 Eyesight can really do, or not, when I actually have it in my hands and can test it out for myself. As we know with Tesla's false advertising (e.g., "...Really"), we really can't trust anyone's advertising. What I cut and pasted in to that last post was a reviewer's impression, and not Subaru's or mine. Might that reviewer be on the Subaru payroll? Sure, anything's possible! That's why I will want to see for myself. Note: In an earlier post, it was my Tesla Model 3 (in AP mode) that almost killed me after a month of ownership (see post #25 - where it started). Thankfully, my 2018 Outback has not tried or succeeded after two years (in killing me with unreliable tech), so far...

 

[jebinc]

An interesting short read for those who engaged in this thread the past month. This one just posted on the Tesla.com forum.

Autopilot Accident | Tesla

I believe Eyesight would have slammed on the brakes quicker, given my experience with both Tesla and Subaru auto-braking systems, than Tesla's "AutoPilot" - whether the Subaru Dynamic Cruise control was ON or OFF (Collision avoidance in this case).

 

[David L]

Before you get too excited about Eyesight on the 2020 Outback, make sure you watch the latest Consumer Reports Talking Cars video in which they discuss it. Skip ahead to 5:00. Good luck getting that hypersensitive attention detection firmware fixed without buying another car. And then there's the lane centering that "kind of goes in the center of the lane and sort of not and annoys you and it's not great and I don't know what it's for," according to their Director of Auto Testing, Jake Fisher.

 

[jebinc]

Before you get too excited about Eyesight on the 2020 Outback, make sure you watch the latest Consumer Reports Talking Cars video in which they discuss it. Skip ahead to 5:00. Good luck getting that hypersensitive attention detection firmware fixed without buying another car. And then there's the lane centering that "kind of goes in the center of the lane and sort of not and annoys you and it's not great and I don't know what it's for," according to their Director of Auto Testing, Jake Fisher.

Thanks for sharing. As I said earlier, since I will have both, I will formulate my own opinion on how the two systems work, or don't - when I have both in my possession. I will report my findings/opinions in this thread.

As you know, one can find glowing and trashy reviews for just about any car, Tesla or Subaru - and we all know what CR thinks about the Tesla Model 3 (unfairly so). As far as the Eyesight report (newly added 2020 features; Pilot Assist and driver distraction), when the reviewer remarks that he doesn't even know what lane centering and adaptive cruise control are used for, that speaks volumes in itself as to his bias. At least all three of the CR reviews can agree the 2020 Eyesight's new features spank Volvo's, ha ha ha.

For the new driver distraction alert system, that can be shut off if you don't like it. Shutting it off would put it on par with the Telsa system, since the Model 3 inward facing camera has yet to be used for anything - time will tell if it ever will. Early releases of a Tesla driver mitigation system would likely follow the same "Beta" evolutionary path as Summon (which is crap, IMHO).

As far as the 2020 Subaru getting OTA updates, that remains to be seen, as even my 2018 connects to my wifi and checks for updates every time I enter/leave the garage. Since I've owned it, I've only received two UI updates, not including nav/new maps downloads. The 2018 Subaru certainly doesn't get the amount updates my Model 3 does. Not sure what the 2020 will bring, in the way of more frequent updates (or not). Time will tell.

 

[focher]

It’s interesting - even telling - that you would use the phrase that the car in AP mode almost killed you. It’s a driver assist. Would you also make the same statement for cars with cruise control that almost hit other cars when not managed? I think it’s still on the driver. FSD brings an argument about responsibility but until then, the car and its features aren’t responsible for anything.

 

[jebinc]

It’s interesting - even telling - that you would use the phrase that the car in AP mode almost killed you. It’s a driver assist. Would you also make the same statement for cars with cruise control that almost hit other cars when not managed? I think it’s still on the driver. FSD brings an argument about responsibility but until then, the car and its features aren’t responsible for anything.

No disagreement and I was in control, which is why I avoided the head on AP driven collision that, if distracted or left unattended, would have resulted in a serious accident.

 

[jebinc]

Update:

A couple of months back I reported that we ordered a 2020 Subaru Outback XT Limited, to replace our 2018 Outback 3.6R Limited (for our off road camping and hauling needs) - and promised a review of the new 2020 Eyesight system, as the new system now includes Tesla "AP-like" functionality (e.g., autosteer, lane centering, dynamic cruise control, emergency braking, etc.). We took delivery of it on Sunday... While there is still more testing to do, I found it quite decent for a first implementation. Surprisingly, Subaru's new auto steer/lane centering and dynamic cruise control works similarly to AP (not NoA, however). Auto start from a stop works as it should, also pleasantly surprising. One difference in AP-like implementation is that the Subaru will alert and disengage (as the Tesla does), when it loses sight of the lines, but the Subaru automatically reengages when sight is restored/lines reacquired. With the Tesla, you have to manually reengage by slapping the stalk down twice. I prefer the Subaru approach in this case. The Tesla AP is more refined and handles curve better, currently. The Subaru also tries to emulate the Telsa "big UI" with a 12" S/X-like portrait display, but has many layered menus at the moment, IMO. On the plus side, the Subaru UI connects to wifi and checks for firmware updates - how frequently it will receive updates is unknown at this time. Still more testing to do with v10 and the new Outback driving aids. The good news is that FSD-like tech and safety features are becoming more widespread. That's good for all. Another plus is that Carplay and Android Auto are included. As I did with my Model 3, I added and Echo Auto to the Subaru mix...

Edit: Added some UI pictures. The MySubaru app now allows auto starting, climate control, windows and other functions via mobile app, that's also a big plus.

 

[jebinc]

Wow, I thought I'd get some comments on that ^^^ post....

If I were able to add to the earlier post, I would also mention that Subaru chose to leave certain controls analog/physical, but they don't all show up in the dark pictures.

 

[cucubits]

Wow, I thought I'd get some comments on that ^^^ post....

If I were able to add to the earlier post, I would also mention that Subaru chose to leave certain controls analog/physical, but they don't all show up in the dark pictures.

I like it and I'm happy others start getting better driver assist systems out there. Can't wait for other EVs to start showing up with similar systems.

On a slightly more off-topic, the first pic with the map brought me some nice memories. I spent a few months this year in Seattle for work and it's an awesome place. I miss everything about it, especially now during the Texas "extended"-summer.

 

[jebinc]

I like it and I'm happy others start getting better driver assist systems out there. Can't wait for other EVs to start showing up with similar systems.

On a slightly more off-topic, the first pic with the map brought me some nice memories. I spent a few months this year in Seattle for work and it's an awesome place. I miss everything about it, especially now during the Texas "extended"-summer.

July 4th thru October 15th is the best time for a Seattle visit, as the Sun is usually out. By November 1st, it's dark and damp most of the time!

 

[Snow Drift]

We just got a 2019 Crosstrek Hybrid PHEV with EyeSight. I haven't tried it yet.

 

[jebinc]

We just got a 2019 Crosstrek Hybrid PHEV with EyeSight. I haven't tried it yet.

Cool. I don't believe the 2019 and 2020 system is the same. I think the 2020 Outback system is a brand new system and UI

 

[Snow Drift]

Cool. I don't believe the 2019 and 2020 system is the same. I think the 2020 Outback system is a brand new system and UI

Yea you have a few updates.

 

[jebinc]

If there is anyone else out there with a 2020 Outback and full Eyesight suite, please share your experience here... the great, good, bad and ugly. Thanks!

 

[manoj]

I compared my Tesla M3 lane assist to my other Car - Nissan Leaf. The leaf is far superior compared to my Tesla. Never had to play around with Leaf's controls for lane assist; Tesla is quite moody - sometimes warns me and other times does nothing when I cross lanes without a signal. Not what I expected. I tried all 3 options and not sure why it behaves so.

Any suggestions to always have the Lane assist help me steer in the middle of the road is preferable unless I intend to change lane using signals.

 

[Pilot1226]

Hey guys, I stumbled on @jebinc 's thread here after posting my own about comparing a new Subaru Outback against the new Tesla Model Y. I agree with generally all of the information here. Here's a little background on me:

I was a Subaru Ambassador for about 3 years, helping to promote the brand and participate in community events that featured environmental or caring aspects (blanket drives for hospitals, etc.). My last 3 cars have been Subarus, consisting of a 2009 Legacy Limited, 2011 Outback Limited, and a 2019 Forester Premium. I've driven the 6 cylinder boxer, which is now discontinued, the previous generation "EJ" 4 cylinder, the modern FB 4 cylinder, and the FA turbo 4 cylinder engines. I've driven all of the models including the Crosstrek Hybrid PHEV, Subaru Ascent, and Outback XT from the last year.

I've also driven the Model 3 as well in March.

I wanted to clarify the comments about the driver assist features found in both and the differences between the two. Again, I think everyone's pretty "correct" with this thread.

First, the Subaru system. My 2019 Forester has the previous generation of EyeSight compared to the modern 2020 version found in the Outback & Legacy with the 2020 redesign. The Forester was redesigned in the 2019 model year, and it's expected to get a minor refresh in model year 2021, and a full refresh due in 2023. Subaru seems to do this on purpose to beta test a new feature before it goes out to the entire fleet.

So, my 2019 has Lane Keep Assist which is PASSIVE, this is the part I wanted to clarify. LKA will ping pong you back and forth to keep you inside of your lane. It only works above ~40 mph. The new 2020's have Lane Centering which is ACTIVE and can work from a stop. This is most comparable to AutoSteer.

Lane Centering DOES work well but seems to let go a lot more than AutoSteer has in my experience. It's much more finicky.

For me, if I want Lane Centering, I have to now either lease a new 2020+ Forester, or I have to buy a new one. This could potentially cost me thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. For reference, my car will depreciate around $12,000 from its original $30,500 sticker by the time my lease is up, expecting around 36,000 miles after 3 years. Again, as it is a lease I'm not really locked into the losses but I could have easily decided to buy or finance.

The big thing that this thread hits is the fact that the Tesla has the neural net - so it gets smarter as time goes on and it encounters new situations. It's smarter than the Subaru will ever be, since the Subaru can't be "upgraded" unless I buy a new model.

Also, the OP pointed out they wanted the XT trim. So, you're looking around 16-20 mpg city if you're lucky. With my non-turbo Forester, I'm getting around 20 mpg city, and around 30 highway; generally my tanks are combined around 23-24 mpg. But, the Tesla would get closer to 120 eMPG here.

Basically what I figured is that it ends up being something like $1500 per year in gas difference. The Outback XT has an MSRP as I configured around $41,500 - which I figure I could negotiate down to around $40,000. After factoring in sales tax from the state, we're looking at $42,600. In my state (NJ), there's no sales tax on an EV.

The Tesla, thanks to a state rebate/incentive, would cost about $49,000 after the rebate including the destination fee. Over a potential 10-year ownership, you'll save $15,000 in gasoline. That's not even counting the twice-a-year $90 oil changes, differential fluid changes, spark plug changes, coolant changes, amongst other routine maintenance items. And also not factoring in anything about ICE-related repairs.

You're also helping the environment, and driving a safer vehicle overall.

As someone that was deeply passionate about promoting the Subaru brand, I am crushed that they refuse to enter the EV market. The Crosstrek is too small for what I'm looking for - with kids and cargo and the need to carry both - but the Model Y offers a very good proposition.

I truly can't imagine buying anything other than a Model Y once I'm able to get out of this lease.

Good luck!