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"Lane Keep Assist" - Telsa vs. Subaru Eyesight (My experience)

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So first they cite this:

Your source said:
Annual guidance: 360,000-400,000 cars delivered this year.

New guidance: “We are working to increase our deliveries sequentially and annually, with some expected fluctuations from seasonality,” which Tesla said was “consistent with our previous guidance.”


Then they say Musk didn't get the memo because on the call he flatly said "we expect deliveries to be between 360,000 and 400,000,"

Which is... literally what the guidance says. 360-400k guidance from Q1 report, and Q2 report basically says 'See previous guidance"

Not really seeing the "didn't get the memo part.
 
So first they cite this:




Then they say Musk didn't get the memo because on the call he flatly said "we expect deliveries to be between 360,000 and 400,000,"

Which is... literally what the guidance says. 360-400k guidance from Q1 report, and Q2 report basically says 'See previous guidance"

Not really seeing the "didn't get the memo part.

I think what they are trying to say, is that investors don't like when Musk speaks for provides forecasts for anything, because those forecasts and timelines often change (Here, we affectionately refer to this as "the Musk timeline"). Musk tends to be overly optimistic with functions and availability. Investors don't like that.
 
I think what they are trying to say, is that investor don't like when Musk speaks for provides forecasts for anything, because those forecasts and timelines often change (Here, we affectionately refer to this as "the Musk timeline"). Musk tends to be overly optimistic with functions and availability. Investors don't like that.


Yeah but in the "example" they gave he was literally repeating the written investor guidance Tesla already published exactly as it was written.
 
Any other thoughts out there on this? I see the 2020 version of Subaru’s Eyesight has “lane centering” that works alone or paired with adaptive cruise control. That’s pretty close to Telsa’s auto steer. While I have no idea how it will work, the stuff Subaru released in the past for Eyesight was 100% reliable and predictable. I hope Tesla doesn’t start falling behind.
 
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Not sure if the new one is different but as an owner of a 2019 fully loaded Outback it's not even remotely the same. Lane Keep is something I think may save me if I fall asleep but I can't even fathom letting it drive me.

I have a 2018 Outback 3.6R Limited. Yes, Eyesight is limited. Even Lane keep is a ping pong experience, but it does offer protection on most roads and is a reliable ping pong player. I can’t say that for my M3 (lane keep only) when I’m actually driving (because I would rather drive than be in autopilot mode most of the time). For 2020, the Eyesight system is reported to be much more capable. Of course, that doesn’t help our 2018!and 2019 Outback at all!
 
I have a 2018 Outback 3.6R Limited. Yes, Eyesight is limited. Even Lane keep is a ping pong experience, but it does offer protection on most roads and is a reliable ping pong player. I can’t say that for my M3 (lane keep only) when I’m actually driving (because I would rather drive than be in autopilot mode most of the time). For 2020, the Eyesight system is reported to be much more capable. Of course, that doesn’t help our 2018!and 2019 Outback at all!
Hmm interesting, maybe the road types, I drive from my town to Atlanta(about 2.5 hours) all the time and I'm on autopilot about 90% of the drive.
 
Hmm interesting, maybe the road types, I drive from my town to Atlanta(about 2.5 hours) all the time and I'm on autopilot about 90% of the drive.

Yes, I think autopilot is good, if you don’t want to drive and can accept the; 1) speed caps, 2) slow starts when traffic in front of you pulls away (pissing those behind you off as you M3 sloooooowly accelerates), 3) random quick disengagement due to autopilot confusion, 4) constant need to give the steering wheel input to avoid warnings and disengagement, etc. To me, dealing with all of that is more stressful than just driving with Eyesight like safety features in the background. YMMV. I’m sure autopilot and FSD (which I shelled out $6000 for) will evolve and improve over time, but right now, many of the features are more gimmicks/parlor tricks than reliable functionality (e.g., Summon). Again, YMMV.
 
Yes, I think autopilot is good, if you don’t want to drive and can accept the; 1) speed caps, 2) slow starts when traffic in front of you pulls away (pissing those behind you off as you M3 sloooooowly accelerates), 3) random quick disengagement due to autopilot confusion, 4) constant need to give the steering wheel input to avoid warnings and disengagement, etc. To me, dealing with all of that is more stressful than just driving with Eyesight like safety features in the background. YMMV. I’m sure autopilot and FSD (which I shelled out $6000 for) will evolve and improve over time, but right now, many of the features are more gimmicks/parlor tricks than reliable functionality (e.g., Summon). Again, YMMV.

I guess I can see that - but it's probably a personality thing. I think the package that came with Eyesight for us was like an extra 3k or so, doesn't really feel like a small amount, honestly to me it's just that, safety. I prefer driving the M3 on long trips any day but unfortunately the Outback is roomier, but I do still enjoy the Outback, super practical car.

I would agree, the Outback has a few more passive features(car moving in front alert, RAB/Cross Traffic alert)
 
I guess I can see that - but it's probably a personality thing. I think the package that came with Eyesight for us was like an extra 3k or so, doesn't really feel like a small amount, honestly to me it's just that, safety. I prefer driving the M3 on long trips any day but unfortunately the Outback is roomier, but I do still enjoy the Outback, super practical car.

I would agree, the Outback has a few more passive features(car moving in front alert, RAB/Cross Traffic alert)

I think all 2019 Outbacks came standard with Eyesight, even the base trim. That wasn’t the case in 2015, when it was first introduced. I think the extra $3000 you’re talking about was to get the Limited or Touring trim, or perhaps for BSM/RCTA - which was extra in lower trims, but included on the Limited and Touring. Like you, I will need to have an Outback in the stable for Outback duties. I have a 2020 on factory order, so it will be interesting to compare the new Eyesight to AP.
 
I think all 2019 Outbacks came standard with Eyesight, even the base trim. That wasn’t the case in 2015, when it was first introduced. I think the extra $3000 you’re talking about was to get the Limited or Touring trim, or perhaps for BSM/RCTA - which was extra in lower trims, but included on the Limited and Touring. Like you, I will need to have an Outback in the stable for Outback duties. I have a 2020 on factory order, so it will be interesting to compare the new Eyesight to AP.
Yeah I think it had like some limited eyesight functionality but not all of them, I don't recall which.
Once we get further along with things like this is when the divide will grow more and more.

 
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Would also appreciate your thoughts, separately, on Tesla's AP/FSD features (which Subaru doesn't offer). How safe do you feel?

I thought everyone knew that Tesla doesn't offer the kind of FSD where you don't need to continually monitor it. The current features are driver assist in nature but you still have to pay attention continuously. Tesla recently released a new batch of the most recent millions of fleet miles driven with AutoPilot on or off and they show beyond any reasonable doubt that AutoPilot assisted miles are statistically far less likely to result in a collision than those driven without AutoPilot.

Since your primary safety is determined by your own driver skill and whether you are paying attention, why would you even ask "How safe do you feel?"

Yes, I know there are some fake YouTube videos where they try to make driving on AutoPilot look like it's some kind of stressful, harrowing experience but it's clear from the 99% of real YouTube videos that driving on AP is a more relaxing experience. Yes, it might take you a few days to familiarize yourself with its behavior and how to work it competently but, after that, not only is it safer as the millions of miles of statistics show, it's more relaxing.

As to the Lane Departure Assist function, I believe Tesla just released the first version of that a month or two ago. This is the first iteration and if it improves at the same rate that AutoPilot has improved over the last 15 months, it will quickly leave whatever your Subaru's came with in the dust. That's the beauty of over-the-air updates.
 
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I thought everyone knew that tesla doesn't offer the kind of FSD where you don't need to continually monitor it. The current features are driver assist in nature but you still have to pay attention continuously. Tesla recently released a new batch of the most recent millions of fleet miles driven with AutoPilot on or off and they show beyond any reasonable doubt that AutoPilot assisted miles are statistically far less likely to result in a collision than those driven without AutoPilot.

Since your primary safety is determined by your own driver skill and whether you are paying attention, why would you even ask "How safe do you feel?"

Yes, I know there are some fake YouTube videos where they try to make driving on AutoPilot look like it's some kind of stressful, harrowing experience but it's clear from the 99% of real YouTube videos that driving on AP is a more relaxing experience. Yes, it might take you a few days to familiarize yourself with its behavior and how to work it competently but, after that, not only is it safer as the millions of miles of statistics show, it's more relaxing.

As to the Lane Departure Assist function, I believe Tesla just released the first version of that a month or two ago. This is the first iteration and if it improves at the same rate that AutoPilot has improved over the last 15 months, it will quickly leave whatever your Subaru's came with in the dust. That's the beauty of over-the-air updates.

@StealthP3D - First, as I've stated many times in thread, I'm not looking to compare AP or FSD to Eyesight as that would be an apples and wrench comparison. Your last paragraph does align with my request, so I will respond more to that as I have numerous times in this read before. First, whether released a month ago or years ago, one would expect basic LDA/LKA released by Tesla would be at least equal to, or far better than systems like Eyesight - especially given Tesla's ambitions (and coming soon announcements) with AP and FSD. Also, as mentioned previously, Tesla's LDA functions on less roads than Eyesight and performs worse then the Eyesight LKA function when it does work (sort of). Lastly, for 2020, Eyesight will have "Lane Centering" (rather than the ping-ponging approach currently offered be Subaru and Tesla). "Lane Centering" can but used alone (when you want to drive) also can be pair with dynamic cruise control (when you want to let it drive, with supervision - which makes it similar to Tesla Autopilot (for Subaru).

Welcome to the all-new 2020 Subaru Outback.

"The 2020 Outback features standard EyeSight® Driver Assist Technology with automatic Pre-Collision Braking. It also includes all-new Advanced Adaptive Cruise Control with Lane Centering[6], which can take some of the stress out of driving by helping with steering, braking, and throttle control.

Standard on: All models"


Subaru also offers safety functionality that Tesla currently doesn't, such as auto braking, DriverFocus Distraction Mitigation System, Rear cross traffic alert (RCTA) to name a few. So, it remains to be seen where Tesla is 15 months from now. Not sure how they can accomplish RCTA without a rear radar, or if any of the FSD/v10 promises will come to pass. If history repeats itself (with Telsa), what is promised/talked about today may or may not come to pass, and when/if some does, it will be way later than forecasted. Look how "off" they were releasing v9, how they oversold FSD years ago (and lost a lawsuit over it), etc. I know this, I will have the things Subaru advertises in my 2020 (and they will work), when it arrives later in September. YMMV :)

Disclosure: For our hauling needs, I have a 2020 Outback Limited XT on order as well, so I will be able to comment on both systems from a basis of experience, not opinion, fanboy or hyperbole. ;)
 
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Man, you are really mixed up on all this. I can't even respond without spending more time than it's worth. Your perspectives on Tesla's driver aids are so far from my actual experience over the last 15 months that I don't know where to begin.

I will say that I responded directly to your request of another forum member to provide feedback of how "safe" they felt on AutoPilot and you blew it off with a non-sensical claim that I was trying to compare Tesla's AP to Eyesight (which is completely false). In truth, I was responding directly to your question of how safe this person felt when driving on AP.

Your behaviour is that of a Tesla detractor spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. If you had sincere concerns you would not be all over the board (your post history shows that you are not interested in addressing relevant comparisons of the driver aids offered by Subaru vs. Tesla, you just want to create the impression that Tesla has no great lead on Subaru). The truth of the matter is Subaru's driver aids are not even in the same ballpark as Tesla's. And you know it.
 
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Man, you are really mixed up on all this. I can't even respond without spending more time than it's worth. Your perspectives on Tesla's driver aids are so far from my actual experience over the last 15 months that I don't know where to begin.

I will say that I responded directly to your request of another forum member to provide feedback of how "safe" they felt on AutoPilot and you blew it off with a non-sensical claim that I was trying to compare Tesla's AP to Eyesight (which is completely false). In truth, I was responding directly to your question of how safe this person felt when driving on AP.

Your behaviour is that of a Tesla detractor spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. If you had sincere concerns you would not be all over the board (your post history shows that you are not interested in addressing relevant comparisons of the driver aids offered by Subaru vs. Tesla, you just want to create the impression that Tesla has no great lead on Subaru). The truth of the matter is Subaru's driver aids are not even in the same ballpark as Tesla's. And you know it.

No disagreement that the Subaru driver aids in total are inferior to those offered by Tesla, as I’ve mentioned many times in this thread. As I stated in my original post, and numerous times thereafter, I’m surprised that the basic Tesla non AP/FSD driver aids (I.e., driver aids that don’t require the car driving for you, under supervision - e.g., lane keep assist) seem inferior to Subaru, currently, which is why I reached out to those that have a Tesla and a Subaru with Eyesight (To see if I’m missing something). @StealthP3D - Do you own a Subaru with Eyesight?

And yes, I wish people would stay on the non AP/FSD driver aid comparison, as requested numerous times - but some either missed those requests, or just can’t help themselves... :)
 
And yes, I wish people would stay on the non AP/FSD driver comparison, as requested numerous times, but some either missed those requestS or just can’t help themselves. :)

I was responding directly to your request of how safe it felt to drive on AP. Please review what you actually wrote. If you don't want to discuss a subject, don't ask someone to discuss it.
 
I was responding directly to your request of how safe it felt to drive on AP. Please review what you actually wrote. If you don't want to discuss a subject, don't ask someone to discuss it.

Yes, I responded to someone who was off topic to my OP request rather than ignoring the post...

If you reread my original post (below), and others, I was trying to avoid fanboy posts, off topic posts, and those making false fanboy-like assumptions about me and my intent...

As you know, since you state above (#116) that you are keeping track of my posts around the forums, I purchased FSD for $6000 as I believe in that future. You also know that I have repeated tried in this thread to solicit input on the basic non AP/FSD driver’s aid comparison from owners of both Subaru and Tesla. So, do you own (or have real world experience with) both, @StealthP3D or are you just trolling me as a fanboy?

Original post

"Preface: First, let me say (to keep fanbois bashing at bay) I love my M3 and have no plans to get rid of it (except perhaps for a future M4) as it's a computer-controlled rocket on wheels….

Background: We own the M3, and two Subaru 3.6R Limited Outbacks with Eyesight Technology (2018 and 2016). Re "Lane Keep Assist" functionality, the 2018 default is "on" and the 2016 is "off" - both can be toggled on or off via steering wheel button.

Observation: For the "Lane Keep Assist" function, I find the Subaru much more evolved and functional than the M3 version - by far. It "just works" and is active all the time as I wander (no need to say, "learn how to drive, OP," or any variant thereof).

Question: For those of you with experience with both systems, what say you?"
 
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Yes, I responded to someone who was off topic to my OP request rather than ignoring the post...

It's not unusual for a discussion topic to drift. If you don't want someone to comment on what you have posted, then don't post it! To refresh, you said:

Would also appreciate your thoughts, separately, on Tesla's AP/FSD features (which Subaru doesn't offer). How safe do you feel?

How safe do you feel? :eek: :rolleyes:
 
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