davidc18
Active Member
Oh, yes, the Tesla employees know what the systems do. I was referring to knowing what and when new things (enhancements) are coming down the road.
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Letter to Mr. Musk from a 1-day old outdated Model S owner
- Thread starter phaduman
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- Elon Musk Tesla Inc.
Very good letter and I fully agree!
The introduction of AP 1.0 was much more smooth and professional. Now it was completely different: no good planning with production, no event, delay of that announcement to make a last minute video, software unfinished. We also cannot compare this with 100 battery or facelift because this is biggest and most important upgrade since AP 1.0.
The introduction of AP 1.0 was much more smooth and professional. Now it was completely different: no good planning with production, no event, delay of that announcement to make a last minute video, software unfinished. We also cannot compare this with 100 battery or facelift because this is biggest and most important upgrade since AP 1.0.
Everybody knew when they bought their car that upgrades would be coming while they owned it. What difference does make if it's the day, month or year after? It doesn't change anything.
People who are upset not because they were "duped" and received less than they paid for, but because they missed out on getting more than they paid for.
I'm not sorry that your free lottery ticket didn't pay out.
I do feel a bit of sympathy for the guy who was told point blank that everything would be upgrade-able. That's not cool.
In Any case, the real question is whether or not AP1 is will ever be able to do the things we were told it would. I think that just became very unlikely and is the real reason for any anger. Firmware 8.1 will most likely not be much of an update for us.
People who are upset not because they were "duped" and received less than they paid for, but because they missed out on getting more than they paid for.
I'm not sorry that your free lottery ticket didn't pay out.
I do feel a bit of sympathy for the guy who was told point blank that everything would be upgrade-able. That's not cool.
In Any case, the real question is whether or not AP1 is will ever be able to do the things we were told it would. I think that just became very unlikely and is the real reason for any anger. Firmware 8.1 will most likely not be much of an update for us.
I think the point was that for Tesla employees to know enough about a current system to explain it to customers on the day it is released, they must have known about it before that day for training purposes.
arondaniel
Il Sessanta Caricato
How so? IIRC, Tesla pretty much just said "Good news everyone! All cars leaving the factory as of last week have this sensor suite in them."
I think the answer going forward would be better upgradability. I do hope that AP 2.0 was designed with more upgradability in mind because you know Nvidia ain't standing still. My own car was upgraded with power folding mirrors. At one point I was also given a quote for parking sensor upgrades... at about the same cost as the AP 2.0 sensor suite, lol!
Yes, I have the iPhone 1.0 & love it.
The countdown to autonomy is in the hands of the legislature rather than the engineers.
Tesla-time will soon be replaced by lawyer-time.
Imagine my joy.
I really doubt what you say: fully autonomy is easier for engineers...I have had discussions with some folks about how challenging it can get when it comes to making decisions that go beyond simpler issues like traffic on the road. e.g., things that are more about emotional intelligence. e.g. a deer (or a moose) crossing the road at night, and a truck on the other lane slightly behind, and 2 cars behind your car. Run over the deer (emotional + damage consideration), swerve to the right and avoid hitting the truck, slam on the brakes and not get rear-ended. More to that would be, how many people are in the car - any babies with seat belts etc to decide how best to react to this situation and cause least damage (to occupants in this vehicle) vs occupants/cars in other vehicles. Is my life more important than other lives in other vehicles?
Just stating that such decisions are hard to make using software, and even harder for two humans to agree that is the right path, and finally, convincing the lawmakers that the s/w is going to make better decision that humans in such cases.
I would venture that humans are even more unlikely to make the optimal choice in such a situation.
Why would they have needed any training a week or a month ago? The probably got a quick sheet explaining the changes about the time the announcement started, or at the start of their next shift. It isn't that big of a change that they need "training".
And if they had gotten training there is no way Tesla could have kept that from leaking. We would have known about it before the announcement.
It is no so much about a free lotto ticket. This is about Tesla providing the upgrade standards we have come to expect in technology products. Tesla clearly claims to be selling a technology product.
At the time of ordering, we asked explicit questions about forward compatibility, upgrades, and obsolescence. We were assured that the car would continue to improve over time and that future improvements could be integrated into the platform. So we invested in the platform. With the AP 2.0 announcement, we have some emerging concerns as to whether Tesla is keeping the faith....
To seed a healthy discussion, with an eye towards improving a company we have great affection for:
Point #1 -Design for future upgrades
Choosing whether to (or not to) design the electronics packages, sensors, and wiring harness to be easily upgraded (or not) is absolutely a design priority choice. Sitting on my desk is a 14 year old computer chassis, upgraded continuously over time, to perform on par with any of today's fastest gaming systems (but alas doing real work!). Why? Because the the electronics components were designed with to be plugged, unplugged, and easily swapped. During its service life time it has been easily upgraded 4 times with major updates.
While I can fully understand Tesla desire we do not mix and match hardware configurations they have not fully vetted, I find it absurd that you cannot swap complete packages of boards, wiring harnesses, and sensors on the vehicle chassis to keep pace with current technology. Tesla missed the ball in failing to design for easy upgrades, even if the new hardware is expensive. Note to Tesla: Think Atari Cartridges (yes I am that old).
Point #2 -Encourage upgrades
Tesla service network expansion is way behind. At the time the upgrade was announced there should have also been a AP 2.0 hardware pack announced and made available for sale ONLY through a network of independent Tesla certified installers who were authorized to sell, install, certify, and then activate the AP 2.0 hardware pack. These independent installers could create a highly competitive and cost efficient means of installing the upgrades and offloading work from the Tesla Service centers. This has already been done by Tesla with auto body service centers.
In failing to sell upgrades to existing vehicle owners, Tesla is leaving cash on the table.
Thoughts and comments welcome. Tesla, I hope you can hear us.
Did you really just compare a PC chassis to an automobile chassis, in terms of simplicity and standardization for upgrade-ability? I would encourage you to contemplate further on some of the many different features of the automobile that would make that difficult. Sensor design and placement, for example. While the connection to the wiring harness may be standardized, the placement and connection to the body itself is complicated by a number of factors: sheet metal shape and composition, distance from the harness, other components in the way, potential environmental factors, regulatory issues...
I wholeheartedly agree with you they are not the same level of complexity. Design for ease of upgrades could be a higher priority. There is a lot of space to work with in this vehicle. Just look at what must be done to install a Light Harmonic upgrade. Better placement and ideas like panels, conduits, and cavities can certainly be considered. Upgrades can be a higher priority for the design team. The same for the vehicle service business planners.
I like the thought of the letter and upgrade through third party vendors. However, I am not sure who wants the liability for installing a system of autonomous driving.
I would prefer to see an alternative to convert my note to a three year lease with a discount or application of the payments towards a credit on a newer Model S.
I only buy a car every 10-12 years, I am 62, will retire in a few years so spending $100K plus on a car will be a stretch.
Still a great fun car.
I would prefer to see an alternative to convert my note to a three year lease with a discount or application of the payments towards a credit on a newer Model S.
I only buy a car every 10-12 years, I am 62, will retire in a few years so spending $100K plus on a car will be a stretch.
Still a great fun car.
If we want to stay with the computer paradigm, I would suggest that a Tesla is more akin to an engineered system, aka like storage/compute/network platforms that are all in one (FlexPod, SuperCluster, or hyper converged like Nutanix, Simplivity). Point being - as you said, those types of systems like Teslas aren't really upgradeable to any large extent. When you want the newest, you have to buy the new platform. Tesla is not a consumer grade PC..
Side note - 3 Marylanders debating, maybe we should meet for coffee
If we want to stay with the computer paradigm, I would suggest that a Tesla is more akin to an engineered system, aka like storage/compute/network platforms that are all in one (FlexPod, SuperCluster, or hyper converged like Nutanix, Simplivity). Point being - as you said, those types of systems like Teslas aren't really upgradeable to any large extent. When you want the newest, you have to buy the new platform. Tesla is not a consumer grade PC..
Side note - 3 Marylanders debating, maybe we should meet for coffee
I agree with you about the systems. My view is that the systems are installed on the chassis. I am viewing the vehicle frame as separate from the systems and maybe this is where my thinking goes astray....
We upgrade avionics in air frames fairly fluidly, although I would hardly say cheaply, because the design electronics spaces with ease of future upgrades in mind.
If we had to cut a hole in the roof for a lidar pod, I would certainly see things differently. In this upgrade I do not see the frame or the sheet metal changing.
What I do see now is new versions of the sensors inside the sheet metal (could have left service panels in the interior trim to allow access to them), new electronics boards (once again access panels), and easily access conduits. There is plenty of space in the frunk to make component placement and swapping easy. As for major new sensors... we have already seen the front fascia's swapped...
We should start a Maryland group to debate this more intensely...
Referring back to the original post, I am afraid that having big new features come out right after you bought your car comes with the territory when buying a Tesla. In my case, the updated front end came out a week after I received my new 2016 MS this past May. It is planned obsolescence taken to its logical conclusion, i.e., the car is obsolete by the time you take delivery of it; but this is the case with all high tech products these days, from mobile phones to computers to washing machines.... due to the short product development cycle. Elon has explained this many times, in that once a new feature is ready, he wants to roll it out as soon as they can get the parts, not wait until the next model year. So I guess we should be expecting it. For my part, I am going to enjoy my car right now, with what it has in it, and after it gets to 50k miles (in about 18 months, at my current rate of driving), get a new one, so that I don't have this high complexity car outside of warranty, and also can get all the newest features. Yes I also bought Tesla stock, so hope to help pump up sales figures to support the next generation of cars. Am I crazy? ABSOLUTELY.
ttupper92618
Member
I don't agree with the letter, but I do think you point out some obvious things about the announcement that most people are ignoring.
Buried in the hype is the reality that everyone buying a Tesla today, and paying for Autopilot, will not be able to use it for some unspecified period of time that in truth amounts to "however long it takes us to prove it is safe." And that's a huge and important point that everyone is completely missing.
I suspect the other shoe that will soon drop will be the findings from regulators regarding the current generation autopilot. My suspicion is that they will conclude that as implemented it is unsafe. And they will very likely require Tesla to make it much harder to use it for much more than lane keeping assistance. I will say it right now: I expect within 6 months auto-steer will get turned off.
How does that relate to this announcement? In many ways, I took this announcement to be indicative of Tesla getting out ahead of what they have every reason to believe is coming: a crack-down on the "Automatic" aspects of "Autopilot". So, it's a refresh of the hardware designed to deal in a substantive way with the issues that exist with the gen 1 hardware... coupled to a bit of artful PR to hide the fact that what Tesla really just did is disable Autopilot on every car leaving the production line.
Opinions may vary, but that's what I suspect is the case.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
No automaker designs their wiring harness to be easily replaceable. There's little to no advantage to designing a car like that versus the compromises you might have to make to do that (wiring harnesses must be protected from damage from exposure, vibration, heat, flexing, etc, so naturally they are put in places that are hard to reach, which make them difficult to replace). Tesla also never promised that their cars would have easy *hardware* upgrades (other than the battery pack which was designed to be swappable from the start). So far the way they accomplished upgrades is with software (hardware already built in but activated later).It is no so much about a free lotto ticket. This is about Tesla providing the upgrade standards we have come to expect in technology products. Tesla clearly claims to be selling a technology product.
At the time of ordering, we asked explicit questions about forward compatibility, upgrades, and obsolescence. We were assured that the car would continue to improve over time and that future improvements could be integrated into the platform. So we invested in the platform. With the AP 2.0 announcement, we have some emerging concerns as to whether Tesla is keeping the faith....
To seed a healthy discussion, with an eye towards improving a company we have great affection for:
Point #1 -Design for future upgrades
Choosing whether to (or not to) design the electronics packages, sensors, and wiring harness to be easily upgraded (or not) is absolutely a design priority choice. Sitting on my desk is a 14 year old computer chassis, upgraded continuously over time, to perform on par with any of today's fastest gaming systems (but alas doing real work!). Why? Because the the electronics components were designed with to be plugged, unplugged, and easily swapped. During its service life time it has been easily upgraded 4 times with major updates.
While I can fully understand Tesla desire we do not mix and match hardware configurations they have not fully vetted, I find it absurd that you cannot swap complete packages of boards, wiring harnesses, and sensors on the vehicle chassis to keep pace with current technology. Tesla missed the ball in failing to design for easy upgrades, even if the new hardware is expensive. Note to Tesla: Think Atari Cartridges (yes I am that old).
Point #2 -Encourage upgrades
Tesla service network expansion is way behind. At the time the upgrade was announced there should have also been a AP 2.0 hardware pack announced and made available for sale ONLY through a network of independent Tesla certified installers who were authorized to sell, install, certify, and then activate the AP 2.0 hardware pack. These independent installers could create a highly competitive and cost efficient means of installing the upgrades and offloading work from the Tesla Service centers. This has already been done by Tesla with auto body service centers.
In failing to sell upgrades to existing vehicle owners, Tesla is leaving cash on the table.
Thoughts and comments welcome. Tesla, I hope you can hear us.
Comparing to a computer chassis is ridiculous. It's basically just a metal box with lots of empty space and every component inside is exposed. A car is much more like a tablet, where you cram the components into tiny spaces, which makes it difficult to have upgrade-able components (other than the battery and perhaps an SD card).
The market for an upgrade-able car is a niche anyways and this is also fast becoming true in the computer market. For most people it is much easier to sell their car and get a new one or to lease if they must drive the newest car. In the computer market, it used to be people built or had someone build their computers and upgrade it that way; now people tend to just buy a pre-configured one even when shopping for desktops and when they want to upgrade, they just buy a completely new pre-configured system (and many times it ends up cheaper this way given seasonal sales and bundles).
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A Tesla will lose 16.9% of its value after one year. With the new hardware it might be slightly higher. If you do not like change buy a Leaf that will lose 56.5% of its value in that first year,
That's exactly how it worked when Autopilot was first released in October 2014 but not fully enabled until October 2015.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Yes, but with less rainbows and more cowbell.
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