Letter to Mr. Musk from a 1-day old outdated Model S owner

[ttupper92618]

As well they should. If Tesla says that AP2 hardware and software is all you need for full autonomy ( as they have ) and then it turns out that it isn't.....people should grumble.

If Tesla does it again....I can also guarantee it will happen again.

That's not what I said. I said they will complain because the feature is not activated, or because it is taking longer than they think it should to activate it.

 

[Garlan Garner]

It isn't about being on the side of a company, it is about pointing out irrational expectations when you see them.

You tend to speak in absolutes, and that's fine, I suppose - it does make things nice and simple. But the problem with that is it results in statements that don't accurately represent what is real. And that's why you are getting pushback. You call it a lack of empathy, but it isn't that at all; it is pushback against irrational representations that don't match up against the real state of things.

Let's take this statement as an example:

"A company with dis-satisfied customers isn't a good company."

Really? Is that really what you think? I personally would argue that this is a viewpoint which just doesn't coincide with reality. Why? Well, for one thing, because you can take any company of any size and find some percentage of dissatisfied customers. There are a lot of reasons for that. Sometimes it is because the company legitimately screwed up, sometimes it is because the company made a decision to do something unpopular. Sometimes it is because people are just being unfair. Apple is a great example. There are plenty of people who are mad at Apple at any given time. Often it is for conflicting reasons. Some people are mad that Apple took away their standard headphone jack. Other people are pleased because doing so allowed the phone to be more water resistant. Who is correct? Does it matter? Apple is alternatively either the most valuable or second most valuable company on earth. It sells its products globally, and has by many metrics the most recognized and respected brands on earth. Apple continuously wins awards for highest consumer satisfaction. Yet, by your logic, the existence of some unhappy customers means Apple is a bad company.

How is that rational?

The problem with much of what you have stated is that is emotional and, contrary to what you suggest, not practical.

I will say again the same thing I have stated multiple times - a point you have assiduously ignored: having compassion for someone does not require that one agree with their irrational viewpoints or faulty logic. Compassion does not equate to agreement. I have two little boys and I very frequently run across situations where one or both earnestly want something - where they are indeed emotionally broken because of their sense of indignation over a perception of being treated unfairly - and my compassion and empathy for them doesn't mean I simply agree that they are correct. This is not, contrary to what you may think, much different: It is possible to feel badly for someone while disputing the rationality or feasibility of what they want.

I'm not making simple emotional statements. They are significant financial woes included in what I'm saying.

I pay you $150K for "THE LATEST AND THE GREATEST" - while you know something greater has already exited the production line. That's not simply emotional.

I know you understand what I'm saying. Even though you disagree....your posts are to educated not to understand what I'm saying.

 

[Garlan Garner]

That's not what I said. I said they will complain because the feature is not activated, or because it is taking longer than they think it should to activate it.

That's not the argument though. That's not what the complaints are though. People aren't talking about features not being available.

If AP1 cars could upgrade to AP2 - I don't think you would have 1/10th of the complaints. Two week old $150K cars have almost become technically obsolete concerning full autonomy. Full autonomy has been advertised by Tesla for years and years. Now I purchase a car as I would one day love to have full autonomy on it - the latest and greatest and I spend $150K for it and now I can't have anything more than a glorified cruise control with steering?

 

[Topher]

I think Model S is a car worth 10yr of supremely enjoyable ownership

When did you think the car you expect to keep for 10 years would be supplanted by a superior version? What difference does it make if the car is good enough to remain useful for 10 years (in your opinion)? Don't worry so much about what other people are getting.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Garlan Garner]

When I ask my magic 8 ball "will some buyers of AP2 complain that the activation period is taking too long?", it says this:

If it takes longer than the 6 months Elon said.....then I say that they should.

I'm tired of all of the excuses for Tesla all of the time. I understand that when they were new.....they couldn't meet all of their promises, however they will be in the mass production car class soon. They will be dancing with the big boys. Big boys don't make excuses, they accept blame.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't understand why people in this forum don't get it.

NO ONE is complaining that they didn't get what they paid for. That's not the argument. Stay on topic.

The topic is this:

I spent $150K for the best car Tesla said they had. NOW one day later they have drastically reduced the value of my car - while knowing that there was a better car in the works. Are we talking about sales people? NO. We are talking about execs. who knew.

Many $150K owners are saying - I would have paid $158K had I known that the option was there.

It has nothing to do with wether or not you got $150K worth of car.

I think you are the one missing the point of others and the push back against the OP.

We get people are complaining they didn't know about an upcoming upgrade and we empathize with that and totally understand why someone would be pissed off about that.

However, that is an entirely different point from whether Tesla owes such people anything (as the OP suggests).

Basically: It is reasonable to be pissed off about Tesla not warning you about an upgrade, but it is not reasonable to expect Tesla to offer you anything in compensation.

Didn't people explain about Osborning and why it is not viable for Tesla to pre-announce everything, especially in a quarter where they needed good numbers to prepare for a capital raise for Model 3?

What you suggest is a good recipe for bankruptcy for a company with a product line that is not sufficiently diverse (Tesla only has a single platform right now in the Model S/X, so nothing to carry them over drops in demand from Osborning).

If they did what you suggested, they would have orphaned vehicles, which they may have to offload at a discount and then you may have people pissed off about that (like xborg). And how far back do they go to not have someone pissed off? For example, if they announced a month earlier, then people who just missed the announcement would be pissed off (similar to P100D). There will always be someone that might be pissed off given Tesla does not follow a model year (which they have good reason not to do).

Again, people have empathy and understand why people are pissed off (I said as much in my first post). However, that is different from agreeing that Tesla owes those people anything.

I also think the others made a good point that AP 2.0 was widely expected at the very latest with the second Model 3 announcement (the actual "second" now moved to the "third" announcement), so the writing was pretty much on the wall. The P100D was more of a surprise, but I don't think AP 2.0 was as big a surprise (it seems everyone knew in the back of their head that it was coming, just not sure the exact time frame). So in practical terms the "loss in value" was only moved up a couple of months (which won't have much affect in general car life terms, unless you were purchasing a car to offload in a few months).

 

[ttupper92618]

If it takes longer than the 6 months Elon said.....then I say that they should.

I'm tired of all of the excuses for Tesla all of the time. I understand that when they were new.....they couldn't meet all of their promises, however they will be in the mass production car class soon. They will be dancing with the big boys. Big boys don't make excuses, they accept blame.

Listen, I agree that Tesla needs to improve in _many_ areas. Build quality, reliability, accuracy in their timing projections... all of these are areas of notorious weakness for the company and you are right: any one of them could be a real problem at scale. So yes, they need to substantively improve across the board.

That does not mean they can practically do some things. One thing they could not have practically done is made cars upgradeable to AP2. Just look at the requirements:

- New computer
- Potentially different install point and placement because of size differences
- New wiring harness / fuse assembly
- New housing for forward facing cameras
- Different body panels for inclusion of side mounted cameras and new radar / ultrasonics
- New and / or updated radar and ultrasonic sensor components
- New mounting points / brackets / hardware for different camera and sensor positions
- Calibration methods and mechanisms to ensure that sensors are correctly positioned for safe and accurate operation

And I am likely leaving off multiple other points.

I've seen all of the above in this forum distilled to "they could have included the wiring harness to allow for upgrades."

It sounds great, as a soundbite - but it is not rational. It doesn't reflect what is real.

This is the gap you are experiencing - you cannot seem to fathom that there is way more complexity in these matters than you realize, and you take us to task for pointing it out and label us as Tesla apologists. I'll be blunt: aside from going to model years, I have not seen a single feasible solution to this matter on a single post in this forum.

If you want to suggest to Elon that Tesla go to model years, he has a twitter account. But in the end, you are likely to find many people - perhaps Elon himself - who will disagree that it would be the right move to make. And that, again, doesn't make them 'unempathic' or what have you - it just means they disagree.

 

[sandpiper]

Fortunately, GG, we all have the ability to vote with our $. In every legal sense you got exactly what you paid for. As did all of the other owners on this forum. There are a whole lot of good reasons why Tesla has no choice but to do as they do in respect to upcoming features.

It's clear that you are steamed, want to vent, and that no amount of explanation will improve your mood. If you feel that you will be unable to enjoy your new vehicle and will be unhappy every time you look at it then I would suggest that you write this off as a learning experience, resell the vehicle and buy something else - either an AP2 Tesla or whatever other car you find appealing.

Yes you will take a financial hit. But, as a professional person and business owner, it probably won't be either the last or most expensive hit that you'll take. As I've certainly learned, these things happen.

 

[bak_phy]

Going to model years would also make the list price on the cars more expensive.
They would have to discount the cars the closer they got to the next model year or people would stop buying them and on average they would still have to sell the car at same price as today.

 

[MXWing]

I don't understand why people in this forum don't get it.

NO ONE is complaining that they didn't get what they paid for. That's not the argument. Stay on topic.

The topic is this:

I spent $150K for the best car Tesla said they had. NOW one day later they have drastically reduced the value of my car - while knowing that there was a better car in the works. Are we talking about sales people? NO. We are talking about execs. who knew.

Many $150K owners are saying - I would have paid $158K had I known that the option was there.

It has nothing to do with wether or not you got $150K worth of car.

Are you dense? It's not a matter of 8 more k to the purchaser. It's also a matter of no cash flow to Tesla for 6 months? You wanna cover that?

Right. But you still haven't presented a practical alternative to what Tesla presently does. For reasons previously discussed they can't give release dates for future major features. They can't go to "model year" upgrades (yet). And they can't stop innovating.

That's the deal. Would I, as an owner who's looking to upgrade in the next year or so, like to know what and when new models/features are coming out? ABSOLUTELY. Will I be frustrated if I just miss something? Yep. Do I accept that this is way it must work right now and live with it? Yes.

So... I watch this blog, try to get a sense of what if likely coming in the near future, and I'll likely buy immediately after a major announcement. And if I screw up and miss something... then I do. Life.

A Tesla, any Tesla puts you in the top 99.999% of the world when it comes to cars. AP1, AP2, no AP. Though the lack of second row folding seats on my Model X makes it worst than a Dodge Caravan!

Every adult with at least an average IQ knows that the instant they drive a new car off the 'lot', it's value drastically reduces.
Every adult with at least an average IQ knows that no matter the product you buy, there's a pretty good chance a better product is in the works somewhere.
Every adult with at least an average IQ knows that life isn't fair and sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug.

Fine, let's all be sympathetic about the OP's unlucky timing (group hug, back rub, better luck next time buddy), but let's not wallow in the pity for longer than it deserves or make a mountain out of a mole hill just because we can. It's a car, a THING. It's money; paper, metal, 1's and 0's. NOT. WORTH. THE. ANGST. or continued bemoaning.

I seriously question how people can get inside a Tesla with such a naive view of the world. It makes me wonder how much of that money is actually theirs.

Ok.. lets consider the fact that I am not an adult with an average IQ. I suppose insults and name calling is adult like.

Now we are all happy. I don't care.

You have more dollars than sense thats for sure! I think a Nobel prize winner in physics might make the same silly arguments. I am trusting a Nobel prize winner in economics, I would hope not. Is your Tesla coming from new money you earned, or was it old money that made it possible? That would add more data to determine your level of intelligence.

I don't understand why folks here are so on the side of defending a company.

A company with dis-satisfied customers isn't a good company. I can't imagine what its going to look like when they do this to a mass market vehicle such as the M3 - with people who are counting pennies just to get one in their driveway. Good luck.

Maybe some of us run companies and can see both sides? You are an idiot if you are counting pennies to put an M3 on the driveway. You are also an idiot if you buy an EV to save on 'gas money'.

I don't know if this would be true or not but I am almost thinking that if everyone whined as much as you they would reduce the level of innovations in the M3. Set up model years and never do any hardware refreshes outside of that to make you think Tesla is a great company now instead of a bad one. LOL

You don't have to repeat yourself.

Lets say you are right and I am wrong. That will solve everything.

If you believe it, then yes it would solve everything. You can still think you are so smart with your virtual 'eye rolling'.

If it takes longer than the 6 months Elon said.....then I say that they should.

I'm tired of all of the excuses for Tesla all of the time. I understand that when they were new.....they couldn't meet all of their promises, however they will be in the mass production car class soon. They will be dancing with the big boys. Big boys don't make excuses, they accept blame.

There is more irony in this post than an irony mine.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Listen, I agree that Tesla needs to improve in _many_ areas. Build quality, reliability, accuracy in their timing projections... all of these are areas of notorious weakness for the company and you are right: any one of them could be a real problem at scale. So yes, they need to substantively improve across the board.

That does not mean they can practically do some things. One thing they could not have practically done is made cars upgradeable to AP2. Just look at the requirements:

- New computer
- Potentially different install point and placement because of size differences
- New wiring harness / fuse assembly
- New housing for forward facing cameras
- Different body panels for inclusion of side mounted cameras and new radar / ultrasonics
- New and / or updated radar and ultrasonic sensor components
- New mounting points / brackets / hardware for different camera and sensor positions
- Calibration methods and mechanisms to ensure that sensors are correctly positioned for safe and accurate operation

And I am likely leaving off multiple other points.

I've seen all of the above in this forum distilled to "they could have included the wiring harness to allow for upgrades."

It sounds great, as a soundbite - but it is not rational. It doesn't reflect what is real.

This is the gap you are experiencing - you cannot seem to fathom that there is way more complexity in these matters than you realize, and you take us to task for pointing it out and label us as Tesla apologists. I'll be blunt: aside from going to model years, I have not seen a single feasible solution to this matter on a single post in this forum.

If you want to suggest to Elon that Tesla go to model years, he has a twitter account. But in the end, you are likely to find many people - perhaps Elon himself - who will disagree that it would be the right move to make. And that, again, doesn't make them 'unempathic' or what have you - it just means they disagree.

I understand exactly what you are saying. It makes sense.

I don't think Tesla will be able to do this in the mass market. However there are many people who said that they wouldn't even get this far.
Are there 400K MS and MX's out there yet? Tesla is about to double their customer base in the low price mass market field. Based on my personal business in solar - That group is a little less forgiving when they count their pennies as they do.

Everyone please read my words carefully. I chose them carefully.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Are you dense? It's not a matter of 8 more k to the purchaser. It's also a matter of no cash flow to Tesla for 6 months? You wanna cover that?



A Tesla, any Tesla puts you in the top 99.999% of the world when it comes to cars. AP1, AP2, no AP. Though the lack of second row folding seats on my Model X makes it worst than a Dodge Caravan!



I seriously question how people can get inside a Tesla with such a naive view of the world. It makes me wonder how much of that money is actually theirs.



You have more dollars than sense thats for sure! I think a Nobel prize winner in physics might make the same silly arguments. I am trusting a Nobel prize winner in economics, I would hope not. Is your Tesla coming from new money you earned, or was it old money that made it possible? That would add more data to determine your level of intelligence.



Maybe some of us run companies and can see both sides? You are an idiot if you are counting pennies to put an M3 on the driveway. You are also an idiot if you buy an EV to save on 'gas money'.

I don't know if this would be true or not but I am almost thinking that if everyone whined as much as you they would reduce the level of innovations in the M3. Set up model years and never do any hardware refreshes outside of that to make you think Tesla is a great company now instead of a bad one. LOL



If you believe it, then yes it would solve everything. You can still think you are so smart with your virtual 'eye rolling'.



There is more irony in this post than an irony mine.

Keep em coming. I can take it.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Going to model years would also make the list price on the cars more expensive.
They would have to discount the cars the closer they got to the next model year or people would stop buying them and on average they would still have to sell the car at same price as today.

That's a good point.

 

[MXWing]

Keep em coming. I can take it.

That's something a cuckold would say. There is an overwhelming chorus on how wrong you are. You are welcome to stay deaf and keep making sub-optimal decisions your whole life if you wish.

 

[Tony8489]

Releasing P100D, and AP2 just one month later? What were they thinking? Just postpone the P100D release. Now they have many sad P100D owners. IS this what they want?
They've released P100D early in order to make q3 sales better. You know what Tesla, let me tell you a secret. If you can't deliver a car in Q3, it will be delivered on Q4.

This is the only case where I agree with the complainers. The P100D buyers are the ones who want the "latest and greatest," and also those who provide Tesla's largest per unit profits. These are not the customers Tesla should want to annoy, and they had to know when P100D was released that AP2 was imminent and that virtually all P100D buyers would want it.

As for the rest of us, a lot of the people who bought in the last month before AP2 was announced got fire sale discounts. In this case it WAS like the model year change at other car companies. My case was 6 months before AP2 and a couple of weeks before the facelift, and I have zero regrets.

 

[MXWing]

This is the only case where I agree with the complainers. The P100D buyers are the ones who want the "latest and greatest," and also those who provide Tesla's largest per unit profits. These are not the customers Tesla should want to annoy, and they had to know when P100D was released that AP2 was imminent and that virtually all P100D buyers would want it.

As for the rest of us, a lot of the people who bought in the last month before AP2 was announced got fire sale discounts. In this case it WAS like the model year change at other car companies. My case was 6 months before AP2 and a couple of weeks before the facelift, and I have zero regrets.

Have you also considered, P100D drivers can trade their car in and take the 30k without any real consequence for their overall portfolio? I am generally curious what the holding time for P90D buyers since I heard trade ins of P90Ds were dramatic when P100Ds were released.

Also if I may ask, what kind of discount were you looking at for the 'fire-sale'? I couldn't get one penny off from my early October order. I tried my best though.

 

[bak_phy]

I couldn't get one penny off from my early October order

That's no doubt because early October is past the end of Q3

 

[arosenbe]

People, people, can't we all just get along?

As someone who was due to pick up his AP 1.0 three days after they announced AP 2.0, I believe I'm qualified to weigh in. Here's the fact: When you order a Tesla, you know EXACTLY what you are getting into. A newer, brighter, shinier object may exist the day before or after you pick up your car. If you're lucky, as I was, it's the day before. I sacrificed my $2500 deposit and reordered the exact same car with AP 2.0. My choice. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have been super upset if I had picked up my AP 1.0 car the day BEFORE the announcement, but that's a risk we take if we chose to get in bed with Elon.

I, for one, can see of no better way to handle hardware upgrades then the way Tesla does now. Does is suck when you're timing is off and you get your car right before a major hardware update? Yup. Does that mean that Tesla has done anything wrong? Nope. I have no doubt that over what I hope to be many years of Tesla ownership that sometimes my timing will be great and sometimes my timing will be awful.

My advice: Eyes wide open. If they way they choose to run their business isn't your cup of tea, pick a different car with which to indulge yourself.

 

[LastGas]

Many $150K owners are saying - I would have paid $158K had I known that the option was there.

First, the original poster DID say he didn't get what he paid for because he is asking for a $10,000 REFUND for a devalued car based on a product improvement he didn't buy. He is claiming his car is only worth $140,000.

Anybody who's head wasn't under a rock already knew that AP 2.0 was coming out and if they wanted it, they would have to wait. Those who chose not to wait made the decision to take the car sooner rather than get AP 2.0. It is not Tesla's fault that buyers made a fully-informed decision that they now regret. Now they are saying that if they knew the option was coming, they would have waited, but they DID know the option was coming and they DIDN'T choose wait for it. The original poster wants to return his used car for a "full refund", get a "do over" and have Tesla pay for it.

And say that Tesla had announced in advance a date for the Autopilot 2.0 switch over, what about the people who took delivery the day before the announcement? How many years back does Tesla have to go to satisfy everybody? Innovation is just they way life is in a rapidly-advancing technology field.

 

[MXWing]

People, people, can't we all just get along?

As someone who was due to pick up his AP 1.0 three days after they announced AP 2.0, I believe I'm qualified to weigh in. Here's the fact: When you order a Tesla, you know EXACTLY what you are getting into. A newer, brighter, shinier object may exist the day before or after you pick up your car. If you're lucky, as I was, it's the day before. I sacrificed my $2500 deposit and reordered the exact same car with AP 2.0. My choice. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have been super upset if I had picked up my AP 1.0 car the day BEFORE the announcement, but that's a risk we take if we chose to get in bed with Elon.

I, for one, can see of no better way to handle hardware upgrades then the way Tesla does now. Does is suck when you're timing is off and you get your car right before a major hardware update? Yup. Does that mean that Tesla has done anything wrong? Nope. I have no doubt that over what I hope to be many years of Tesla ownership that sometimes my timing will be great and sometimes my timing will be awful.

My advice: Eyes wide open. If they way they choose to run their business isn't your cup of tea, pick a different car with which to indulge yourself.

Thanks for having a realistic view of the world. The losses for cancelling an AP1 car at this point is
-2500
-2-3 months build time for new car
-Opportunity for Tax Credit 2016 which would allow one to potentially get Tax Credit on a Model 3 in 2017.
-FSDC not operational for 2 years

Did you receive any discounting on your AP1 car?