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Local Supercharging: Proper use for Superchargers or Waste of a Scarce Resource

How should Superchargers be used?

  • Superchargers have Tesla plugs, so all Tesla owners should have equal access to them.

    Votes: 38 55.1%
  • There should be a graduated system for SC use, incentivizing local Tesla owners to charge elsewhere.

    Votes: 19 27.5%
  • If you charge at SCs when you could charge at home, you're a terrible person and I hate you.

    Votes: 21 30.4%
  • I paid good money for "free" Supercharging, so I'll use it when I want. Sharing is for Commies.

    Votes: 6 8.7%
  • I dislike Superchargers because of the lack of organized lines, there.

    Votes: 5 7.2%

  • Total voters
    69
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Except you bolded the part that clearly includes those who can't charge at home or work.

Yes, precisely. Read what I wrote and what I bolded (and the entire Tesla blog post).

The blog by Tesla explaining what the “new” (in Sept 2017) Urban SCs was for explained that it was specifically accounting for those who can’t charge at home or work (and elsewhere in the post it also says how the existing ones (pre-urban SCs) are to enable trips).
 
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Supercharging is hard on batteries - let's not forget that.
Is the Model 3 battery perfect in this regard? I am willing to bet that it is not. I am also willing to bet that it is better than an S but not perfect.
Local supercharging should be discouraged for multiple reasons and one of those is battery issues. Batteries are a scarce resource.
Do not buy an EV if you have to supercharge exclusively. By most estimates, 80% of people who are buying new cars have some mechanism of charging at home. Mostly if your income is high, you own a house or have enough influence at condo or work.
So 20% can't. We are at about 2% market share for EVs. Those 20% can wait another 5 years for charging to be installed either at their rental or at work.
People how really want a Tesla can move or change jobs. Or get over the fact that it is a car and there are lots of nice cars out there. If you that committed to the environment, then fix your own personal local charging problem.
I don't think we need to charge 3x for locals to discourage. I have no problem but it isn't needed. 2x would be fine. I am embarking on a 330 mile trip today. On my way home tomorrow, I maybe 40 miles out with a 20 mile range and supercharge for 5 min. Whether it costs $1 or $3 doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. We have SC's every 50 miles or so and timing would favor using the last one for faster charging. So a 3x at 50 miles might push me to charge earlier in the trip and take up more time on a supercharger (not much give the change in the taper - but I would want a slightly bigger buffer). The 105 mile away supercharger is more convenient off the highway so that combined with not getting "Surge" pricing could sway me.
 
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Supercharging is hard on batteries - let's not forget that.
How so? Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack - Electrek


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All is yet well. I live at ground zero for ownership density relative to SCs and the only time I've had to wait for a charge in the last 2 years locally has been when multiple pedestals are faulty.



Fortunately, you're wrong. Day 1 was not at the 2015 annual meeting. When I purchased my first S in 2014, I was told specifically and repeatedly that a) those without home/work charging are welcome to use the SC network ad libitum, and b) that Tesla would build more to stay ahead of demand. At that time there was exactly 1 SC in LA County. Within 2 months there were 3 and now I've lost count. There have been abject misses, certainly - the OC and SD County had exactly 1 SC each for FAR too long, but in general, and I say this having been through 48 states and provinces, even today, 97% of the network is just fine - including during holiday weekends.

Years later, urban chargers were introduced in part for infill and in part due to densely populated areas having more condo/apt dwellers than homeowners. In time, all multi-family dwellings will be required to have EV charging, but that'll take a generation.

The biggest problem has not been "local charging" per se - it has been ICEing by our own, followed by livery - livery's been dealt with, and idle fees were instantiated. In my opinion, the idle fees are not high enough, but that's another matter. Fastest way to turn an 8-stall SC into a 2-stall SC is to ICE a few and to have some faulty pedestals. Not ICEing by ICEs, but ICEing by our own. ICEing is surprisingly rare already - until people respect green striping and signage as they do blue and red striping and signage, the problem will still exist, of course.



Except you bolded the part that clearly includes those who can't charge at home or work.



Get out more. There are lines at gas stations every day - see ARCO, and Costco. BT (before I owned a Tesla), I used to turn left at an intersection into a Costco after work and wait 20 minutes for my 4% discount at the pump (yeah, I know). Now, I turn right at the same intersection, plug in, and either get a salad at the host property or use wifi to return emails or otherwise make use of the time.

On the road, the ONLY significant delays I've encountered have been due to site or pedestal outages - and those are annoying, but rare. Now, part of this is because just as no sane person would get gas at a Costco on a Friday or Sunday afternoon in SoCal, I rarely put myself in a position to have to rely upon a chokepoint SC during a busy holiday season - or a solar eclipse (Corning, CA or Pocatello, ID). But again, once out of coastal California, this is a non-issue anyway.

In the end, it is up to Tesla to manage demand at the SCs. As cars achieve 400-mile range and faster charging, and as sites continue to proliferate, all will be well. Now, for other EVs, it's still a serious clusterfook - but I digress.

Check out supercharge.info to understand how much of a competitive advantage Tesla has in their SC network. It is *the* differentiator above and beyond driver assist features - because I assure you - the competition will have decent enough Level 2 driver assist features to get people to buy their Taycans and e-trons and e-Golfs and so forth.

But those cars will go literally nowhere outside of town until there's a sustainable charging network that will scale. And 4 pedestals at a Walmart ain't gonna cut it for interstate travel.
I like your arguments and am glad to hear your experiences. I'm hopeful your version beats mine, but I see some evidence that it may not.

One point where I disagree is gas lines. Yes, I'm aware of (and a member of) Costco, but I don't consider a private club's heavily discounted gas as part of the regular fueling economy.
 

@tes-s you haven’t watched the Prof. Dahn video??

His video is referenced by the chart. Prof. Dahn explains how you cannot simply extrapolate the degradation. Some chemistries they tested that “look better” initially can then fail dramatically — and earlier than others that looked “worse” initially.

So “testing” for 50,000 miles by the public is good to show what happens over 50,000 miles and nothing more. Certainly not the clickbait-y 500,000 in the headline. The over 80% number referenced by Elon is more useful than extrapolating public data from 50k to 200k miles like this: “The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.”

The whole premise of his team’s advanced testing methodology is based on this idea and trying to find advanced ways to test that DO give you the ability to extrapolate more accurately.

Tesla has indicated themselves that supercharging isn’t completely without negative side effects, this is mentioned on their site, and it’s is why they not only taper you in one session, but also taper you lifetime if you supercharge “too much”... because supercharging is hard on batteries.
 
  • First, immediately end all new "lifetime free Supercharging" incentives. Current free users continue with no change, but the program dies when the cars die. "Free" anything introduces ridiculous distortions in any economic fabric, as anyone who has watched all the crab legs immediately disappear at the buffet knows.
  • If you use a Supercharger outside 100 miles from home*, then you pay "1x" the local rate for Supercharging.
  • If you use a Supercharger inside 100 miles from home*, then you pay "3x" the local rate for Supercharging.
  • The "local penalty" would evaporate during "off peak" hours, established by algorithm when the chargers have plenty of availability.

First, I agree with you that there should be off-peak hours where locals are permitted to Supercharge. Perhaps 10PM-9AM M-F and midnight-8AM weekends and holidays. But Tesla should keep the hours consistent from location to location. Outside of those hours, locals should not be able to Supercharge without a corresponding rate increase. Adding algorithms that are known only to the Great and Benevolent Oz are not a good solution in my opinion. Better to have fixed times at all locations that are easy for everyone to understand and can be validated. Having varying times at different locations unnecessarily complicates matters and results in more complaints by us owners to get the fees waived or reduced. This ties up labor resources that Tesla should not have to address.

The radius from home* is problematic to me. The Fish Camp Supercharger is "45 miles" from my house. The Mammoth Lakes Supercharger is "75 miles" from my house. The Lone Pine Supercharger is "99 miles" from my house. These distances are as the crow flies, because that is how Tesla has designed the mileage distances from the touchscreen. Real mileage: Fish Camp = 56 miles. Mammoth Lakes = 254 if Sonora Pass is open or 388 miles year-round. (July 1 it will be closer when the road opens across Tioga Road.) Lone Pine = 289 miles. While Fish Camp is still <100 miles, in order to cross the Sierra Nevada, one absolutely, positively must Supercharge at Fish Camp before driving into and out of Yosemite. To assess "local" rates for a road trip to the Owens Valley and eastern Sierra Nevada is absurd. And I am not going to rely upon Tesla to get the logic right with their software. Some concepts seem to flummox the programmers.

I suspect that there are similar situations throughout much of the country whereby is it essential to Supercharge at a distant location but Tesla would ascribe a straight-line distance rather than the actual road distance. Moreover, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that people would take a day trip and need to Supercharge to return home at a Supercharger that is 60-75 miles away in order to arrive home safely.

In short, this is an insoluble problem. As the network expands we will continue to see times when congestion and delays are nil, and we will see times when they are front and center. The network expands, and we repeat the cycle.

Case in point: The 40-stall Kettleman City Supercharger opened about 18 months ago. Outside of the holidays, this site had not used heavily. One year ago, a busy time was 8-10 in use. Right now, on Sunday, June 30, seventeen are in use at 1350 hours. I bet that next year at this time, 30 or so will be in use.
 
This is absolutely false. Elon Musk at the 2015 annual meeting:

“There are a few people who are quite aggressively using it for local supercharging,” he said at the time. “We’ll sort of send them just a reminder note that it’s cool to do this occasionally, but it’s meant to be a long-distance thing.”

Anyway, I know Tesla is now encouraging people to use superchargers as their primary charging but it most certainly was not that way from day 1.
What changed is that Tesla realized that apartment dwellers are important especially for the model 3.
 
Don’t agree with penalties for close-to-home. Sometimes you just need a little boost to get there. On my road trip to DE, I had to stop for a 10-minute top-off about 25 miles from home to ensure enough range to get there in the driving rain - especially since I needed to drop someone off on the way home (in the wrong direction.) Should I be penalized for that? Don’t think so.
 
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Don’t agree with penalties for close-to-home. Sometimes you just need a little boost to get there. On my road trip to DE, I had to stop for a 10-minute top-off about 25 miles from home to ensure enough range to get there in the driving rain - especially since I needed to drop someone off on the way home (in the wrong direction.) Should I be penalized for that? Don’t think so.
If a person occasionally needs a ten-minute top off, the penalty will cost a couple of bucks, hopefully no big deal for the owner of a $35K to $100+K car. It's main design is to make regularly charging away from home but in town unattractive.
 
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If a person occasionally needs a ten-minute top off, the penalty will cost a couple of bucks, hopefully no big deal for the owner of a $35K to $100+K car. It's main design is to make regularly charging away from home but in town unattractive.
Not sure why you have such an extreme attitude towards a top off which is perfectly reasonable the notion of a “penalty” makes no sense..most of the time these SCs are idle , are there peak periods ..absolutely however that doesn’t mean one can’t charge locally if the situation calls for
 
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Not sure why you have such an extreme attitude towards a top off which is perfectly reasonable the notion of a “penalty” makes no sense..most of the time these SCs are idle , are there peak periods ..absolutely however that doesn’t mean one can’t charge locally if the situation calls for
Calling it "extreme" might be a little, well, extreme. You mentioned a rare occasion when you needed a little juice. The outlined system would certainly allow for that, and would even allow for a non-peak time top off with zero penalty, but even, at worst, the occasional user would be down, literally, maybe two or three dollars. As a person who charges at home for all but road trips, the prospect of more expensive local Supercharging wouldn't scare me at all.
 
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I charge most of the time at home as well ..however my car also has free supercharging ..do I abuse it ? Absolutely not , for folks that purchased cars with this benefit should be able to use as needed , I always make a point to leave as quickly as possible if I see folks queued up ..I also live in Socal and have seen the growth and in some cases the lack of enough SCs ..I can’t speak to others who may abuse or take advantage ..but there are a lot of times when I just see idle stalls, there should be no penalty for that if someone wants to use..my opinion ..