Vendor Wish you could reduce Supercharging usage? Looking for testers

[kpanda17]

when needing to use: L1 outlet draw plus the onboard battery providing 14-50 outlet for L2 30 amps EV charging?

not to be a buzz kill, but there is a good youtube of a Norwegian doing the nightly M-F 15 amp L1 and then full charge using L1 on the weekend
video:

he is able to successfully live on L1 charging only

 

[jeremymc7]

You can get about 70 miles on L1 overnight. For those that need more this solution could give you another 30 miles or more by my calc.

As is evidenced in other threads people are paying $10-20k to get L2 into their condo parking spots.

This is a cheaper solution if you need (want) to charge only at your condo and 100+ miles nightly is enough.

Similar for a leased house where landlord won't let you install L2 and you need need more range at home.

There are other options from Bluetti and Jackery that could work but they aren't really plug and play due to complexity, and cost more.

But yes if you're not driving on the weekend you could get 300 miles over the weekend and 70 miles overnight on weekdays. Which could average out to something like 130 of range a day.

The product isn't for everyone but there is a niche for it.

 

[jankratochvil]

The www.dockcharged.com "Particulars" table is not fair. It should also state:

15kWh DockCharged	DockCharged	Tesla Wall Connector
maximum charge overnight (8 hours)	75 miles	405 miles
purchase cost	USD 15000 or how much - we do not know	USD 475
lifetime	15 years	unlimited

Or for the 6kWh unit we know:

6kWh DockCharged	DockCharged	Tesla Wall Connector
maximum charge overnight (8 hours)	45 miles	405 miles
purchase cost	USD 7999	USD 475
lifetime	15 years	unlimited

It may find some customers but it no longer looks so attractive.

 

[Rocky_H]

The www.dockcharged.com "Particulars" table is not fair.

Neither is yours. You are stating the complete all-in price of getting the Tesla wall connector bought and installed as $475, which isn't even close to accurate. One of the main points of this is if people have to avoid multi-thousand dollar installations to get a wall connector put in.

 

[Supcom]

The www.dockcharged.com "Particulars" table is not fair. It should also state:

15kWh DockCharged	DockCharged	Tesla Wall Connector
maximum charge overnight (8 hours)	75 miles	405 miles
purchase cost	USD 15000 or how much - we do not know	USD 475
lifetime	15 years	unlimited

Or for the 6kWh unit we know:

6kWh DockCharged	DockCharged	Tesla Wall Connector
maximum charge overnight (8 hours)	45 miles	405 miles
purchase cost	USD 7999	USD 475
lifetime	15 years	unlimited

It may find some customers but it no longer looks so attractive.

At $1000+ per kWh storage, it would take at least 2000 trips to a supercharger (5.5 years), at $0.50/kWh supercharger prices to break even. When you include the cost of home electricity, this gets worse. Cheaper supercharging also makes this worse.

And 15 kWh takes about 5 minutes to get out of a supercharger, so, unless the superchargers are well out of the way, or have long wait times, I don't see this really saving any significant time. One 20 min SC session will provide multiple days worth of energy that could be gotten from the 15 kWh unit.

I keep trying to find a valid use case for this, but really can't. It seems like a good idea. And, if it were a quarter of the cost, it might make sense. But, if you are in a situation where you would consider forking out $15000 for one of these, you likely could afford, and would be better off, moving to a more EV-friendly place.

Or, buy a Cybertruck and use it to charge the daily driver. You can drive the CT on weekends and maybe sell energy to your neighbors.

 

[jankratochvil]

Neither is yours. You are stating the complete all-in price of getting the Tesla wall connector bought and installed as $475, which isn't even close to accurate. One of the main points of this is if people have to avoid multi-thousand dollar installations to get a wall connector put in.

The installation cost can vary a lot. For me Wall Charger was CZK 14900 == USD 635 and its installation cost was almost zero installing it myself, just buying some 32A wires for maybe USD 10. I already had there prepared a circuit breaker box for other 3-phase outlets for garden (such as for a concrete mixer). The whole DockCharged table is biased, there is Hardware Cost "$0 up front" but the monthly payments are not mentioned there. Hardware cost of Wall Connector is "Up to $1,000" while the real cost is $475 - the Installation Cost is a separate item there. According to european laws one could even sue the website owner as a false advertisement.

 

[Rocky_H]

The installation cost can vary a lot.

Yes, it certainly does, which is why your valuing it at nothing isn't very helpful.

its installation cost was almost zero installing it myself,

Then you are not the customer that this product even applies to, are you? The author here said right up front that if people can easily and cheaply install a level 2 charging solution, then that is definitely better for them, and they do not need to consider this item. This is an alternative where installing a standard charging station is very difficult or expensive.

Hardware cost of Wall Connector is "Up to $1,000" while the real cost is $475

$1,099. There's a cost of a wall connector.

HCS-60 EV Charger | Enphase

Discover the ultimate EV charging solution with HCS-60 EV Chargers - built to withstand harsh weather and heavy usage, featuring a durable J1772 connector and a 5-year limited warranty in the US. Safety certified and compatible with all EVs in North America.

enphase.com

It was your choice and preference to choose the Tesla branded one. And $475 is still "up to" $1,000. That's true. It doesn't mean the table is inaccurate. So you're applying your preferences, and then accusing the table of being wrong because it doesn't match the particulars you chose.
Generalized tables are going to have generalized information.

According to european laws one could even sue the website owner as a false advertisement.

Get out of here with that nonsense.

 

[DougDC]

Sounds interesting, though given I am in a single family home with a Tesla Wall Connector I'm not a target customer. That said, Victron does some similarly cool power management with a hybrid inverter / charger they build for RVs. For example, it allows an RV to draw up to 30 amps while connected to a standard 10-15 amp outlet by combining the RV's on-board LFP batteries with incoming shore power to meet the demand. I'm citing this as an example of a product that takes a similar approach to sharing multiple power sources to meet a demand for current higher than can be drawn from an available wall socket, and I can tell you from experience that it works beautifully. Best wishes to you for success with your product. Here's the Victron product: MultiPlus - Victron Energy

Very cool!

 

[gsmith123]

And, if it were a quarter of the cost, it might make sense. But, if you are in a situation where you would consider forking out $15000 for one of these, you likely could afford, and would be better off, moving to a more EV-friendly place.

Unfortunately, I think you are right. The cost is really the limiting factor here.

I really like this whole idea, by the way. I lived for about a year in a rental with a garage using just 120v charging. Ideal situation for this product (although I've since moved). Charging worked out OK, for the most part, but being able to "harvest" more of the available power and continuously capture ~1KW even when the car wasn't home would be really helpful.

The problem is just the cost to value ratio. In the use case I was talking about above the device, at best, roughly doubles the overall energy available for charging. If I'm gone for 12 hours every day this device gives you another 12 hours of charging for "free". If you're only gone for 8 hours a day at work you only get a 50% boost.

For say $400 I would have considered this thing. But at 10x that it just doesn't seem worth it.

If somebody had a longer commute (35 - 70 miles) I guess there is a window where this device makes the difference between being able to totally rely on home charging vs needing 1-2 DC fast charge top ups per week. That convenience factor could make a larger investment worth it, but now you're really getting into a small customer base:

- renters / condo dwellers w/ no option to install faster charging at a reasonable cost
- long (but not too long!) commute. No WFH option.
- not interested in moving (despite the long commute)
- no charging at work
- already drives an efficient EV (i.e. not somebody with an R1S who could switch to a Model 3)

I hope you're successful, but I'm not terribly optimistic

 

[DougDC]

I’d be interested in this

Thank you! There is a lot of interest so I am getting my co-founder, Chris, to help talk with people. We will get to you shortly if you have signed up. I really appreciate the participation.

 

[DougDC]

I think the advantage here is for people that only have 110v available and don't want to or can't charges at SuperChargers and do more driving than you can typically charge at home on 110v

The unit charges during the day (at higher cost rates) and when you're home at night it switches to using the 110v power input from charging the battery to combine with the battery to give you a 220v output for say output twice as much power to the car overnight compared to using using the typical 110v itself.

I'm guessing the cost to charge the battery during the day and also at night when combining with the battery to charge the car at night, plus the cost of the unit itself is going to be close to just charging at a Supercharging.

Again the case here is when someone needs more power than can get typically get off 110v alone overnight and can't or don't want to (time is money) use the Supercharger.

Yes, this is correct.

 

[DougDC]

Unfortunately, I think you are right. The cost is really the limiting factor here.

I really like this whole idea, by the way. I lived for about a year in a rental with a garage using just 120v charging. Ideal situation for this product (although I've since moved). Charging worked out OK, for the most part, but being able to "harvest" more of the available power and continuously capture ~1KW even when the car wasn't home would be really helpful.

The problem is just the cost to value ratio. In the use case I was talking about above the device, at best, roughly doubles the overall energy available for charging. If I'm gone for 12 hours every day this device gives you another 12 hours of charging for "free". If you're only gone for 8 hours a day at work you only get a 50% boost.

For say $400 I would have considered this thing. But at 10x that it just doesn't seem worth it.

If somebody had a longer commute (35 - 70 miles) I guess there is a window where this device makes the difference between being able to totally rely on home charging vs needing 1-2 DC fast charge top ups per week. That convenience factor could make a larger investment worth it, but now you're really getting into a small customer base:

- renters / condo dwellers w/ no option to install faster charging at a reasonable cost
- long (but not too long!) commute. No WFH option.
- not interested in moving (despite the long commute)
- no charging at work
- already drives an efficient EV (i.e. not somebody with an R1S who could switch to a Model 3)

I hope you're successful, but I'm not terribly optimistic

Thanks!

Yes, that is exactly who we are targeting. Is it a huge market now? No. Is it growing? Yes. Will it be really big one day? I don't know but it is big enough for us right now. Will battery prices decrease with time? Yes. Will energy prices keep climbing? Yes. This is my third company and I have a history of wins so I am able to bet a little bit. This one seems interesting to me.

In startups, the path to success is picking on markets your own size and selecting a market that have people with their hair on fire. This small market is like our Normandy beach. There are no direct competitors. There is willingness to pay. I think there is a path to making this a viable and potentially a really impactful business.

I think the best path is a rental/subscription model. People can also buy it too and it will be a home back up system and can to charge their car. There are a lot of hidden value props.

The product works incredibly well and for me and the people that have used DockCharged, they don't want to give it back and it is life changing for them. That's enough for me to keep going.

 

[DougDC]

The www.dockcharged.com "Particulars" table is not fair. It should also state:

15kWh DockCharged	DockCharged	Tesla Wall Connector
maximum charge overnight (8 hours)	75 miles	405 miles
purchase cost	USD 15000 or how much - we do not know	USD 475
lifetime	15 years	unlimited

Or for the 6kWh unit we know:

6kWh DockCharged	DockCharged	Tesla Wall Connector
maximum charge overnight (8 hours)	45 miles	405 miles
purchase cost	USD 7999	USD 475
lifetime	15 years	unlimited

It may find some customers but it no longer looks so attractive.

Our target customers don't have the ability to install L2, too expensive, or they rent and they don't want to invest in the landlord's property (also landlord doesn't want to either). I do have to adjust this table and it isn't by comparing it to a L2 charger.

 

[DougDC]

At $1000+ per kWh storage, it would take at least 2000 trips to a supercharger (5.5 years), at $0.50/kWh supercharger prices to break even. When you include the cost of home electricity, this gets worse. Cheaper supercharging also makes this worse.

And 15 kWh takes about 5 minutes to get out of a supercharger, so, unless the superchargers are well out of the way, or have long wait times, I don't see this really saving any significant time. One 20 min SC session will provide multiple days worth of energy that could be gotten from the 15 kWh unit.

I keep trying to find a valid use case for this, but really can't. It seems like a good idea. And, if it were a quarter of the cost, it might make sense. But, if you are in a situation where you would consider forking out $15000 for one of these, you likely could afford, and would be better off, moving to a more EV-friendly place.

Or, buy a Cybertruck and use it to charge the daily driver. You can drive the CT on weekends and maybe sell energy to your neighbors.

We are focused more on a rental and lease model and they can purchase if they do so choose - it is also a home back up system as well and can take in solar for charging. Our customers are people that are renting or in a condo where their HOA won't allow them to install or it is cost prohibitive to do so.

Cheap supercharging is mostly very late at night and not so convenient. Energy prices are going up and not down.

 

[DougDC]

I really love the engagement. Thanks for all the questions and challenges!

 

[GNFO]

I really love the engagement. Thanks for all the questions and challenges!

Your idea is very sound and does make sense. I also am not your target customer, but would bring up two things:

1: If intended for condo and apartment dwellers, is there any way to lock a very expensive device down if you don't have access to a secure garage space that is just your own? Even a "secure" garage for the whole building can have bad actors or visitors. Also, is it weather resistant?

2: Have you compared your device to the new EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra? It's intended for home backup or RV travel, but it's also portable and can provide 240V while also charging on 110V. I was looking at it because of the home backup part and the fact I could charge it from a portable generator while still running if there was an extended power outage. Also, you can charge it off of 240V as well, just not while it is providing power too. So in your use case for apartments, it could also be plugged in to the dryer outlet if you needed power sooner.

The issue you're going to face is that the EcoFlow is available right now. Baseline 6 kWh of battery expandable up to 30 kWh for a single stack, or up to 90 kWh if combined with two other stacks (although the ability to combine stacks requires extra equipment and an electrician installation). The baseline 6 kWh unit goes for $5,799 with additional battery modules for $3,299. You'll have to be able to compete with that.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[buckets0fun]

Have you compared your device to the new EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra?

Or the zendure SBV product line with expansion batteries and TT30 port?

 

[GNFO]

Or the zendure SBV product line with expansion batteries and TT30 port?

That's interesting, but the advantage of the EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra is that it can put out 30A of 240V with just one unit, which is not common. If I'm not mistaken the TT30 is 125V only. It takes two sets of the Zendure or the older EcoFlow Deltra Pros (and other makers) and additional cables/equipment to be able to match that. For me that meant it could plug in to the same house L14-30 backup power connection my portable generator can use.

From the 240V output aspect the DockCharged prototype is good, but the price needs to be comparable to the EcoFlow. The rental business model does provide some advantage to a different market, but another business could just buy EcoFlows and rent them out too without having to go through all the technical development.

 

[jeremymc7]

2: Have you compared your device to the new EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra? It's intended for home backup or RV travel, but it's also portable and can provide 240V while also charging on 110V. I was looking at it because of the home backup part and the fact I could charge it from a portable generator while still running if there was an extended power outage. Also, you can charge it off of 240V as well, just not while it is providing power too. So in your use case for apartments, it could also be plugged in to the dryer outlet if you needed power sooner.

Can it also provide 240V off the battery alone without having the 110v plugged it? Or is the 110v mandatory to get 240v out?

 

[jeremymc7]

That's interesting, but the advantage of the EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra is that it can put out 30A of 240V with just one unit, which is not common. If I'm not mistaken the TT30 is 125V only. It takes two sets of the Zendure or the older EcoFlow Deltra Pros (and other makers) and additional cables/equipment to be able to match that. For me that meant it could plug in to the same house L14-30 backup power connection my portable generator can use.

Is the Ultra EV friendly? I seem to recall the older Pro's with associated HW had some problems charging a Tesla.