Losing enthusiasm for Model 3

[bro1999]

I must have missed the Tweet where he promised that there would be a $35,000 Model 3 available in 2017. Maybe it was in a press release? Maybe an interview question? Guess I missed it.

Dan

He may have never said the words "I promise a $35k Model 3 will be delivered in 2017", but he/Tesla certainly gave a lot of people the impression some people would be able to get a $35k 3 before 2018.

When a typical manufacturer states "Will be available by ___ with a starting price of $____", you can actually place a factory order for a barebones vehicle when the car goes on sale. You may not be able to easily find a base stripper on a dealer's lot, but you can sure as hell order one from the beginning.

When Tesla says "Available in 2017 with a starting price of $35,000", it obviously doesn't mean the $35k version actually be available initially, as we've all seen.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

He may have never said the words "I promise a $35k Model 3 will be delivered in 2017", but he/Tesla certainly gave a lot of people the impression some people would be able to get a $35k 3 before 2018.

When a typical manufacturer states "Will be available by ___ with a starting price of $____", you can actually place a factory order for a barebones vehicle when the car goes on sale. You may not be able to easily find a base stripper on a dealer's lot, but you can sure as hell order one from the beginning.

When Tesla says "Available in 2017 with a starting price of $35,000", it obviously doesn't mean the $35k version actually be available initially, as we've all seen.

No, those are yours and other people's interpretations of what was said. We see something said as an opinion, then we interpret that as fact and then if that doesn't happen in a timely fashion cry that we were lied to. We are upset with our own false interpretations. It is no fault of either Elon Musk or Tesla as a company. I have no problem acknowledging issues with the early cars or that there have been delays in Model 3 ramp. The delays were all expected and communicated in the "ramp up hell" series of tweets and quotes.

My favorite Simon and Garfunkle quote..

"We hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest".

Dan

 

[ggies07]

No, those are yours and other people's interpretations of what was said. We see something said as an opinion, then we interpret that as fact and then if that doesn't happen in a timely fashion cry that we were lied to. We are upset with our own false interpretations. It is no fault of either Elon Musk or Tesla as a company. I have no problem acknowledging issues with the early cars or that there have been delays in Model 3 ramp. The delays were all expected and communicated in the "ramp up hell" series of tweets and quotes.

My favorite Simon and Garfunkle quote..

"We hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest".

Dan

Not really. Before the ramp-up screw up, he said they should be able to get all the first day reservation holders by the end of the year (2017). He didn't know what versions people were going to get and if everything had worked out, I would have been able to get the base version by then.

 

[internalaudit]

I think first mass market BEV just refers to the volume of production, it has nothing to do with the masses being able to afford one
Tesla Confirms Model 3 Will Be First Mass Market Electric Vehicle | CleanTechnica

EM comes from South Africa so maybe they define mass market as something else there.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Oh Lord...another "promise broken" post. I won't beat the already long dead horse but let's just try to differentiate between a promise and an opinion. For the record...and I could certainly be wrong, Elon has never promised anything. He has given his opinion based on the facts available to him at the time the opinion was stated. I have never taken any of them to be anything more than educated estimates prone to the effects of previously unknown factors.

Dan

What you are doing is political spin. You can't have it both ways. I notice the fans love pointing out that he didn't specifically use the word 'promise'.

Well he didn't use the word 'opinion' either. Where did you get that from? Why are you putting words in his mouth? Did Musk say:
In my opinion, we may be able to produce 5000 Model 3s per week in December?? No?

I don't see Musk suing the countless articles that use the phrase 'overpromise, underdeliver' in describing what he does.

 

[McRat]

No, those are yours and other people's interpretations of what was said. We see something said as an opinion, then we interpret that as fact and then if that doesn't happen in a timely fashion cry that we were lied to. We are upset with our own false interpretations. It is no fault of either Elon Musk or Tesla as a company. I have no problem acknowledging issues with the early cars or that there have been delays in Model 3 ramp. The delays were all expected and communicated in the "ramp up hell" series of tweets and quotes.

My favorite Simon and Garfunkle quote..

"We hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest".

Dan

OK, tongue FIRMLY in cheek:

The Waiter

I am now a poor boy
And my story's often told
I have squandered my deposit
For a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jests
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest ... lle le le le le le le

When I left my CC number
I was no more than a boy
In the company of strangers
In the quiet of a Service Center
Sales Terminal.
Waiting slow
Seeking out scraps of info
That no one really knows... lie la lie

Asking only MSRP
I come looking for a car
But I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores
Selling the Model S.
I do declare
There were times when I was so lonesome
I took some comfort there, le le le le le le le

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Not really. Before the ramp-up screw up, he said they should be able to get all the first day reservation holders by the end of the year (2017). He didn't know what versions people were going to get and if everything had worked out, I would have been able to get the base version by then.

Again, "should" is not "will". Like I said, the best estimate with the information available at the time. Previously unknown factors (supply issues) limited the speed of their ramp. People that had interpreted "should" as "will" claim they were lied to. This is exactly what I mean. We are all guilty of wanting this car in all our favorite iterations ASAP (preferably yesterday!), but we are letting our desires interfere with reality a little bit I think.

Dan

 

[Dan Detweiler]

OK, tongue FIRMLY in cheek:

I am now a poor boy
And my story's often told
I have squandered my deposit
For a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jests
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest ... lie la lie

When I left my CC number
I was no more than a boy
In the company of strangers
In the quiet of a Service Center
Sales Terminal.
Waiting slow
Seeking out scraps of info
That no one really knows... lie la lie

Asking only MSRP
I come looking for a car
But I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores
Selling the Model S.
I do declare
There were times when I was so lonesome
I took some comfort there, le le le le le le le

OMG! I love this!!!

Wins the internet for today! Well played sir...well played!

Dan

 

[ohmman]

Well he didn't use the word 'opinion' either. Where did you get that from? Why are you putting words in his mouth? Did Musk say:
In my opinion, we may be able to produce 5000 Model 3s per week in December??

Anyone talking about something that's going to happen in the future is giving an opinion on what they think will happen. Excusable or not in this case, nobody can tell the future. Some are flat out lying, some are bad estimators of the future, some are good at it. But all of them are giving their opinion based on what they know.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

What you are doing is political spin. You can't have it both ways. I notice the fans love pointing out that he didn't specifically use the word 'promise'.

Well he didn't use the word 'opinion' either. Where did you get that from? Why are you putting words in his mouth? Did Musk say:
In my opinion, we may be able to produce 5000 Model 3s per week in December?? No?

I don't see Musk suing the countless articles that use the phrase 'overpromise, underdeliver' in describing what he does.

I don't do political spin. I am referring to a statement made regarding future events with no basis in proven fact. That sir is an opinion. And why is Elon's suing or not suing relevant? He's a little busy I think. You know, that whole ramp up Model 3, tunnel under Washington, shoot cars into solar orbit thing. Doubt he has time to worry about such things.

Dan

 

[ggies07]

Again, "should" is not "will". Like I said, the best estimate with the information available at the time. Previously unknown factors (supply issues) limited the speed of their ramp. People that had interpreted "should" as "will" claim they were lied to. This is exactly what I mean. We are all guilty of wanting this car in all our favorite iterations ASAP (preferably yesterday!), but we are letting our desires interfere with reality a little bit I think.

Dan

right, I knew it wasn't final, but that was one of the first estimated timelines given to us. I was fine with the first bump from Dec to Early '18.....my frustration has come due to repeated bumps and the way they are handling the SR/day-line waiters. Anyway, it is what it is at this point.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

right, I knew it wasn't final, but that was one of the first estimated timelines given to us. I was fine with the first bump from Dec to Early '18.....my frustration has come due to repeated bumps and the way they are handling the SR/day-line waiters. Anyway, it is what it is at this point.

No doubt, it is frustrating. I am right there with you. I just have a problem when people equate their frustration with disingenuous actions on the part of Tesla.

We'll get our cars...and they will be remarkable. They can't get here fast enough, no doubt!

Dan

 

[lapolak]

I get what you were trying to illustrate here but most people have some tax liability and will realize some advantage from the credit, those that have over $7500 of tax liability obviously benefit the most.

I know, but Tesla heavily markets its cars as essentially discounted by $7.5k. With the Model 3, there are will be many people (like myself) who don't pay much in federal taxes and are going to finance the car. I knew from the beginning I was not going to benefit greatly from the tax credits, but some of my friends who usually get refunds were under the impression their reservations would be 27.5k when the time came to configure the cheapest option.

So, some people will be surprised and disappointed to learn they may not get the max or any credit at all despite all the talk of incentives on Tesla's site, blogs, newspapers, etc.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

I know, but Tesla heavily markets its cars as essentially discounted by $7.5k. With the Model 3, there are will be many people (like myself) who don't pay much in federal taxes and are going to finance the car. I knew from the beginning I was not going to benefit greatly from the tax credits, but some of my friends who usually get refunds were under the impression their reservations would be 27.5k when the time came to configure the cheapest option.

So, some people will be surprised and disappointed to learn they may not get the max or any credit at all despite all the talk of incentives on Tesla's site, blogs, newspapers, etc.

Some slight corrections. First of all, Tesla doesn't market their cars. Their advertising budget is $0. Secondly, every time a price has been mentioned in regards to the Model 3 it has been "before federal or local incentives". This has been the case from the beginning.

Dan

 

[cbutters]

I have seen the model 3 in person twice now... The first experience squashed my enthusiasm for the model3 a bit, the second experience made me excited again.

First Experience
The First time I saw the Model 3 was when yuyu came to town on his road trip with his white car. I was excited to finally get a look. I have been driving an used i3 ever since I got excited about the model 3 and didn't want to wait to drive electric. When I showed up to see the Model 3 at the supercharger it was packed with people, and Yu yu was busy managing people and trying to fit everything in. I got to sit in the front seat for a split second, but It felt really impersonal getting to see the car, with people lined up behind you waiting, and all of somebody else's road-trip items all over the car; so it was super rushed. I was surprised how low to the ground it was. The car also had some aftermarket wheels that to some extent changed the appearance of the car that I was expecting. I was so rushed, caught off guard, and there were so many people there that I couldn't wait 2 hours for a test drive, so I kindof just slunk away back to my i3 (which has a really spacious cabin and comfortable seating position that is almost CUV like ) and wondered... is it really worth waiting? (For reference; I own a model X as the family/wife car) I didn't cancel my reservation or anything... but in many ways I lost a bit of enthusiasm.

Second Experience
Fast forward to last week.. I had received my invite, but deferred waiting for AWD specs. Then a local owner held a small get-together for Tesla owners in the state to come check out his Model 3. His car was exactly my color that I want (Midnight Silver) so I had to go. The guy had the car in showroom condition, and it was beautiful. This time I wasn't surprised by anything since I had already seen it in person, I had plenty of leisure to check out the cabin, adjust the seats, and get a real feel for the car. I started to really be able to envision myself driving it. My takeaways were:

A) I was blown away by the sound system that I was able to test. Premium sound was incredible, better than my X with Premium sound.

B)(niche use case, but the armrest is large and perfect for use with a mouse, if you spend time sitting in your car using a laptop)

C)The car at least this unit seemed really well built; the seams were perfect to my eye (my X has some fairly severe gap issues) and I've heard some doors don't shut unlesss you use a lot of force. This one did not have that problem at all.

D) I was able to drive the car around the parking lot a few times, and while the acceleration didn't feel as strong as my X100D, it was still very punchy, but the absolute best thing about it was the nimbleness while steering the thing around. I had a 2011 Mazdaspeed 3, and I feel like the model 3 has similar handling characteristics.. (mazda makes great handling cars) They really nailed the steering and suspension.

E) The car is gorgeous... seeing it in perfect condition in the color I will be getting made my week, although I still haven't seen the aero wheels in person. (Pretty sure I'll be getting the aero wheels)

So yeah, I was having second thoughts about the 3, but seeing and driving it in a relaxed environment really renewed my excitement....In a weird way; I was so impressed with the car, Its almost down-selling me; making me think "This thing is so nice I don't even need any of the upgrades, just get the 35,000 version instead of the LR/Dual/Premium and you'll still be super happy." That said, I know I don't want to wait any longer, (I'm done letting my wife have all the fun in the X) and will get the first Dual motor version Tesla drops (I live in a snowy state on one of the steepest hills in the county.) Tesla needs to drop the dual motor specifications so we know what we are waiting for.... seriously. But I'm excited again after getting to drive this thing.

 

[206er]

I have seen the model 3 in person twice now... The first experience squashed my enthusiasm for the model3 a bit, the second experience made me excited again.

First Experience
The First time I saw the Model 3 was when yuyu came to town on his road trip with his white car. I was excited to finally get a look. I have been driving an used i3 ever since I got excited about the model 3 and didn't want to wait to drive electric. When I showed up to see the Model 3 at the supercharger it was packed with people, and Yu yu was busy managing people and trying to fit everything in. I got to sit in the front seat for a split second, but It felt really impersonal getting to see the car, with people lined up behind you waiting, and all of somebody else's road-trip items all over the car; so it was super rushed. I was surprised how low to the ground it was. The car also had some aftermarket wheels that to some extent changed the appearance of the car that I was expecting. I was so rushed, caught off guard, and there were so many people there that I couldn't wait 2 hours for a test drive, so I kindof just slunk away back to my i3 (which has a really spacious cabin and comfortable seating position that is almost CUV like ) and wondered... is it really worth waiting? (For reference; I own a model X as the family/wife car) I didn't cancel my reservation or anything... but in many ways I lost a bit of enthusiasm.

Second Experience
Fast forward to last week.. I had received my invite, but deferred waiting for AWD specs. Then a local owner held a small get-together for Tesla owners in the state to come check out his Model 3. His car was exactly my color that I want (Midnight Silver) so I had to go. The guy had the car in showroom condition, and it was beautiful. This time I wasn't surprised by anything since I had already seen it in person, I had plenty of leisure to check out the cabin, adjust the seats, and get a real feel for the car. I started to really be able to envision myself driving it. My takeaways were:

A) I was blown away by the sound system that I was able to test. Premium sound was incredible, better than my X with Premium sound.

B)(niche use case, but the armrest is large and perfect for use with a mouse, if you spend time sitting in your car using a laptop)

C)The car at least this unit seemed really well built; the seams were perfect to my eye (my X has some fairly severe gap issues) and I've heard some doors don't shut unlesss you use a lot of force. This one did not have that problem at all.

D) I was able to drive the car around the parking lot a few times, and while the acceleration didn't feel as strong as my X100D, it was still very punchy, but the absolute best thing about it was the nimbleness while steering the thing around. I had a 2011 Mazdaspeed 3, and I feel like the model 3 has similar handling characteristics.. (mazda makes great handling cars) They really nailed the steering and suspension.

E) The car is gorgeous... seeing it in perfect condition in the color I will be getting made my week, although I still haven't seen the aero wheels in person. (Pretty sure I'll be getting the aero wheels)

So yeah, I was having second thoughts about the 3, but seeing and driving it in a relaxed environment really renewed my excitement....In a weird way; I was so impressed with the car, Its almost down-selling me; making me think "This thing is so nice I don't even need any of the upgrades, just get the 35,000 version instead of the LR/Dual/Premium and you'll still be super happy." That said, I know I don't want to wait any longer, (I'm done letting my wife have all the fun in the X) and will get the first Dual motor version Tesla drops (I live in a snowy state on one of the steepest hills in the county.) Tesla needs to drop the dual motor specifications so we know what we are waiting for.... seriously. But I'm excited again after getting to drive this thing.

Fascinating, and encouraging for others! I had the exact opposite experience - fairly disappointed, underwhelmed - after spending a few hours with a Model 3 in Jan.

 

[cbutters]

Fascinating, and encouraging for others! I had the exact opposite experience - fairly disappointed, underwhelmed - after spending a few hours with a Model 3 in Jan.

What specifically did you find disappointing and underwhelming? (not trying to argue or anything... just curious on your take)

 

[AustinPowers]

I would imagine the intent here was to get a used Model S in the 50k range, comparable to current config Model 3. But you've stated that even base price 3 would be a bit tough on the wallet, so.... Then again, these recently announced EVs from other manufacturers aren't easy on the wallet either.

I just looked up all available used Model S currently listed at Germany's number one used car site. Almost all those below 50K Euro are 2013 or 2014 models with more than 200K (some almost 300K) km on the clock! Honestly, if I spend 50K Euro, I don't want a four year old beaten up car with 200K+ km on it. The Model S and X just aren't viable alternatives to a Model 3, Bolt, etc. Not over here at least, not if you are a private buyer. YMMV of course.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Fascinating, and encouraging for others! I had the exact opposite experience - fairly disappointed, underwhelmed - after spending a few hours with a Model 3 in Jan.

This is exactly why it is so important for everyone to do everything they can to experience the car for themselves. We can all go on and on about what we loved or hated about the car but in the end the ONLY opinion that matters is yours. One person will hate the "hard" ride while another will applaud its "Formula 1" feel. One will bemoan the design decision of putting the controls on one central screen as distracting and dangerous while another will sing the praises of the simplicity of the unification of the information and cleanliness of the unobstructed view ahead. Anything other than your butt in that seat is just wasted breath because nobody has the same tolerances, likes and dislikes that you do.

Experience the car. Weigh the ups and downs. Pull the trigger...or don't, but let it be your decision not anyone else's.

Dan

 

[Barklikeadog]

Anyone talking about something that's going to happen in the future is giving an opinion on what they think will happen. Excusable or not in this case, nobody can tell the future. Some are flat out lying, some are bad estimators of the future, some are good at it. But all of them are giving their opinion based on what they know.

How many times did Musk tout "$35,000" during the big unveil? 10 times? 20 times? He said it over and over again, $35,000.
I can't imagine why people would get bent out of shape by his prom....opinion.