Fraud is not business as usual. At least not in the US. We have laws that dictate what is acceptable for companies to do and Tesla's conduct with regard to FSD pricing is deceptive conduct.
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Losing interest in the Tesla Brand
- Thread starter P100DHG.
- Start date
Agreed. I rented a Volvo (didn't note the model) last week in Europe and was amazed by the drive.
I felt like I was in a loaner Tesla S*. Not mine. It reacted exactly the same way when it detected lane markings, etc.
* Not electric drive stuff ... it was a diesel.
PWlakewood
Active Member
Fraud is a pretty heavy accusation. Unless you can show the actual law/definition and show how they have defrauded people then I dont see it.
Tesla is a soon-to-be 10 year old "startup".
It's like pissing to keep your pants warm. Maybe they need to do this right now, and risk permanent brand damage, but they can't expect or require customers to be that patient and understanding.
PWlakewood
Active Member
I work for a startup and weve been in business for 8 years. Were still learning and will continue to learn and adapt and change accordingly. We recently had to cancel a project due to its budget and we have many unhappy customers that put deposits down and now will not get what they expected. Will some leave us and go elsewhere? Maybe. Most will be offered a discount on a different model and or refunded there initial deposit. How Tesla adapts and changes over the years will be different than other companies. They are free to run there business how they see fit and deal with the consequences accordingly.
Indeed, different people and companies do different things, nothing new there, but again, possibly a very bad move that has converted me from an enthustiatic owner and "early adopter" to a grumphy "sitting on the fence and wait" kinda guy.
I'll comment that I came into Tesla at the end of 2017 as a regular consumer - not some "early adopter", investor, or fanatic. I have no objective other can purchasing a fair product. When people excuse the company's recent behaviour by defending the company's existence or quoting some benevolent mission, it has nothing to do with me. I see them manipulating prices, stealing pre-order money (and offering to let you buy more non-existent pre-ordered products as consolation), and revising promises.
This whole situation is also being aggravated by the cult nature of some of the company's fans. It is hard to get them to even admit that something has gone horribly wrong, and they are more than willing to rush in and buy more stuff. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or something, but when I hear about a business screwing its customers and employees, I don't spend any money there.
Regardless of the amount loss on my end, this FU-style of conduct and the negatively irrational culture of a portion of its fanbase makes me reconsider ever doing business with Tesla again. I'm going to wait and see what comes of all of this in the next few weeks.
PWlakewood
Active Member
Seriously grow up.
They are just trying to help you. You should be grateful.
PWlakewood
Active Member
Oh I'm grateful......that they will sell THERE teslas sooner than later
How hard is it for some people to look outside their own world and realise that the price drop they saw wasn't the same everywhere. Ask those buyers in Taiwan and China how if feels to find out your car is now 50% cheaper than it was the day before. Never ever seen that happen in the automotive world and nor should it.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Correct, it might not work, it might for and then stop, different people report different modes of failure, but Tesla pretty much admitted there is an issue so if you have a Gen1 HPWC and a 2018 car, they'll swap it for a new one for free (the new charger is free, not the installation/swapping costs). If you're going to have guests with 2018 or newer Teslas, make sure you have a NEMA14-50 available for the mobile connector.
Series 1 HPWC issues with 2018 model S
Sg911
Member
I agree with most everything you stated. I’ve had 4 Mopar (3 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and a Hellcat ) over last 5 years ,and never had 1 problem or any maintenance expenses. Even oil changes were free. Guess I was very lucky, and they were still under warranty. 3 recalls in total! Only thing I can say about the Porsche, similar to a Tesla, is that there will be only 25 moving parts, and way less comparably to I.c.e. to break. So that might help lol? There is an opportunity to be an e Porsche /TESLA mechanic for sure !
whitex
Well-Known Member
No offense taken. Laughing is good for you.
I didn't go hunting for this bug by the way, I simply ran into it - it is a little concerning to go to your garage at night or in the morning and find your car is on, HVAC is going, all screens are on, and guess what, you can unplug it and drive it without a key until the next time you put it in "park". So, for one car is running all night, putting wear on all components, and two, if this happens in a public place, someone can steal the car (it draws attention too, itself since all screens are lit up and audio is playing).Since Tesla didn't know why it happens (nothing in their logs apparently, even though I gave them exact time stamps of when it was happening), so took it upon myself to figure it out so I can avoid having my car stolen, or HVAC/MCU/instrument cluster dying prematurely. Took a while, I ended up disabling all of my remaining X10 home automation sensors since they operate of frequencies close to the car's fob, bunch of trial and error, putting all Tesla fobs in the house in a Faraday cage (yes I have one for work I used to do) every night, but eventually I figured it out - my wife would pick up my daughter from her gymnastics and have her ride in front passenger seat. Our garage is not Elon size garage - we only have room for 2 Teslas if we park them with the passenger side to the wall. Whenever they got home and it was cold and rainy, my daughter opted not to exit the car before getting parking in the garage, and then she'd just slip out the driver's door. Car would never shut off or auto-lock. I don't know whether Tesla fixed it or not, I just asked my daughter not to do that and problem went away (she did it once more a while later, problem came back so I know it wasn't fixed right away).
Oh, as for bugs reported to Tesla, you might find this amusing. I reported a bug to Tesla a while back in 2013 - when you manually turn on the headlights, after parking, when you open the door, an warning tone goes off and car tells you that your lights are on and your range will be reduced - an incorrect warning if you have your lights set to go off when you exit, since they do go off as soon as you lift off the seat. So they "fixed" it, few updates later I noticed that the warning text is gone, however the beeping noise is still there (same noise the car would make it you for example left the car in "drive" and tried to exit the car) - that's worse. The best I could figure is that the developer fixing it and QA verifying it (if they even QA things like this) did it with an MCU in someone's cube without a speaker connected to it, so they didn't catch that their fix was a hack job. Oh, 2-3 of years later they reverted the fix, now it's back to a meaningless sound and text warning when you exit the car. I bet it would have been easier to fix than fart mode, but of course wouldn't get any media attention Elon craves so much.
Well, my issues were a mix of software and hardware (and software causing hardware damage), but to me, since a product includes both software and hardware, then both software and hardware quality counts as far as product quality is concerned. I don't buy Elon's "we have over the air updates, so because we can fix bugs in the future, you cannot count them towards quality of the product". If iPhones were slow, requiring reboots all the time, and occasionally catching on fire because of bad software, you probably wouldn't call them good quality product, would you?
Bottom line is that all those issues cause service visits, which costs Tesla and the owners money. If not early adopter problems, maybe they should fall into bad quality control bucket. I have in the past compared Teslas today to Hyunday in the 90's, some people got a Hyundai and it lasted forever, others spend more time in the shop (under warranty, but still) than on the road. It seems similar thing happens here, some people have a lot of problems while others come out and tell how they drive 100K miles without a single issue.Series 1 HPWC issues with 2018 model S
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And Mark Spiegel's retweet guided many others to this thread, a couple days ago. More pseudo's posting. It is going both ways.
Didn't know I was misunderstanding, root and tree
I think you're right about the defenders standing down, a bit. I'm one, especially since V9.
But I'm not sure I agree with the Model S service issues, and instead feel it was well sorted by 2015. I've had four (12, 14, 15, 16), last two currently. They had it pretty much figured out. Sun-roof, no, but I don't score like Consumer Reports and over many years have been out of warranty, more than in, with my cars. So, little stuff, yeah. What matters more to me is if it won't drive. I won't park it at Tesla until they have a Bluetooth antenna, or other things some might reasonably expect to be in and out for. That goes w/territory of this price range, and perhaps I'm too forgiving. As my posts probably show, it is over things the company makes worse that my fuse shortens.
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whitex
Well-Known Member
Didn't know I was misunderstanding, root and tree
I think you're right about the defenders standing down, a bit. I'm one, especially since V9.
But I'm not sure I agree with the Model S service issues, and instead feel it was well sorted by 2015. I've had four (12, 14, 15, 16), last two currently. They had it pretty much figured out. Sun-roof, no, but I don't score like Consumer Reports and over many years have been out of warranty, more than in, with my cars. So, little stuff, yeah. What matters more to me is if it won't drive. I won't park it at Tesla until they have a Bluetooth antenna, or other things some might reasonably expect to be in and out for. That goes w/territory of this price range, and perhaps I'm too forgiving. As my posts probably show, it is over things the company makes worse that my fuse shortens.
If, as you state, your criteria for requiring service is when the car "won't drive", then I will agree with you, Tesla's don't need as much service. In my case, 2017 car won't charge at home, but it still drives and there is a supercharger 45 minutes away, I guess per your criteria no service required. Side mirror flops around while driving, still no need for service since it the car is still moving. The car won't lock and shut off, also no need for service - that's actually opposite of "won't drive" since it will drive for anyone even without a key, so of course asking to have it fixed is unnecessary.
So, if you are a Tesla customer who's only expectation of the car is that it moves, then you're probably going to be happy. Of course if your car does stop driving, then you'll still be unhappy having to wait in line behind all the other customers who brought it for unnecessary service for thing like fixing their heater - who needs heat in their car for goodness sake, you can always dress warmer, right?
As for concrete examples of cars way after 2015 when you say "it was well sorted", check out some sample problems my 2017 and 2018 cars have experienced in the post above. Most customers who spend $100K for a car have expectations above your "it still drives", hence the problem. Maybe Tesla should set correct expectations - we guarantee the car move forward when you put it in "drive" and backwards when you put it in "reverse", nothing more?
PWlakewood
Active Member
Does anyone actually know how many teslas have had issues that the service center had to be involved? Probably not so for all we know it could be a small percentage and or the whiney ones who complain that theres a rattle somewhere. I've never seen so many entitled people expect perfection.
